David R. Evans http://www.jta.org/user/profile/69230 en-us zsilberman@washingtonjewishweek.com Copyright 2012 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 A good read on historical fact by a Jewish professor at the University of Tel Aviv:: Israel Delberately Forgets Its History by Dr. Shlomo Sand (Zand) http://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel So spare everyone here more of the nonsense that attempts to justify the ongoing theft of other's land for the Zionist cause, a cause that has hijaked the religion of Judaism. Until Theodore Herzl came on the scene, Jewish Rabbis knew that Israel was not about the land. Israel was about the heart and the righteousness of the good Jewish people. It is far from righteous to steal and live in the homes of those one has driven from those homes. It is far from righteous to beat people and kill them for their land. Zionists should disgust all who believe in a righteous God. The temporary land grant that the old books speak of was CONDITIONAL on the Covenant. Jewish ancestors repeatedly broke the covenant, and were punished by loss of their right to the ancient land of Israel. Period. http://www.appaf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 More REAL history that belies the mythical nonsense of Zionists and their ignorant supporters: “Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan...Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes.” Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, “Their Promised Land.” “The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David’s conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule.” Illene Beatty, “Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan.” More on Canaanite civilization “Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined... http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html#early 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Cohn, Indigenous peoples, including those of the Southwest U.S. have far more connection to this land that we of European ancestry. Many Mexicans have that ancestry. Jews inhabited a small portion (less than 10%) of what is now Israel, and Jews have ALWAYS been a historical minority in what is they now claim as Israel. See this map for your lesson on modern history:of Palestinian lands that were stolen and continue to be stolen from those other than Jew: http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/landloss.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 A large group of Mexican people are claiming their right to build settlements all across the face of the U.S., and they are killing people and throwing them out of their homes in states from California to Maine. Their ancestors once liven, just a couple of hundred years ago, on one third of what is now the contiguous United States. Don't stand in their way as they destroy your crops and occupy or bulldoze your homes, as they claim the right of self defense against all such terrorist acts by you, the landowners who are being displaced. And Sara Palin thinks this is ok, and as it should be. Is she right? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 The rocket attack victims this article speaks of can be multiplied by factors of hundreds if the same article were speaking of Palestinian victims. Palestinians in Gaza have no shelters that are safe from Israeli attacks. They don't even have adequate drinking water and medicines while under brutal occupation and oppression of Israel. So please don't cry about the injured in Sderot who live on theland of a Palestinian village, Najd after Palestinians were forced from their homes there, or Ashkelon, another of 500 Palestinian towns that were overrun by Jewish immigrants. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Bassini, The UN report acknowledged that firing rockets at civilian populations from Gaza or from Israeli gunships and fighter jets are war crimes. Inaccurate rockets from Gaza are not the initial problem, as rockets are fired in retaliation for and resistance to Israeli aggression. Hamas held the cease-fire despite Israel's continued strangling of Gaza, despite Israel's repeatedly shooting innocent Palestinian farmers and fishermen, and despite Isreal's invasion of Gaza airspace and attacks on their borders. It was a lie that Operation Cast Lead was launched to stop the "hundreds of rockets fired from Gaza", as the following graph from IDF data shows: http://www.spinwatch.org/-articles-by-category-mainmenu-8/73-middle-east/5317-how-israel-torpedoed-its-ceasefire-with-hamas-to-produce-a-casus-belli Israel has violated scores of UN resolutions since it's founding 61 years ago, and it continues to kill palestinians, including children, with impunity: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=19f_1253070639 http://www.inewsit.com/video/gallery/Footage-of-Israeli-Military-Shooting-Gaza-Farmers http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10767.shtml http://www.video4viet.com/watchvideo.html?id=aZBwcPcAeFA&title=Israeli+Navy+Attacks+Gaza+Fishermen++Internationals For a myriad of facts that belie the myths of a righteous Israel: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ Israel was created by Western powers and dumped like a maurauding elephant on the people of Palestine. More than 700,000 people were driven from their homes as immigrants, mostly from Europe, filled up the land. And Israel continues building settlement colonies and displacing Palestinians. THAT is the initial cause of the conflict. Palestinians are resisting this gross injustice. All violence in the area is SUBSEQUENT to Israeli INITIAL aggression. Palestinians have no tanks and artillery pieces. They have no gunboats nor helicopters or state of the art fighter planes. All theyhave is rockets and small arms to defend their people against the 4th most powerful military machine on our planet. Inaccurate, often times homemade rockets are a pathetic resistance weapon, but that's all they have. Can anyone view the carnage of Gaza and still in good conscience defend the REAL terrorists (Israel) here? Don't tell me about the suffering of the invading Jews, please. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 And please, Mr. Zuesse, let's not bring ancient texts into the conversation, as modern Zionism does a disservice to humankind when it invokes nonsense. Your erroneous use of the Qur'an, as much of the Talmud is nonsense and would be viewed with condemnation by even the most liberal among us. Also, it seems that early Jewish peoples who migrated to their surrounding Arab brother's states created their own problems as arrogant new arrivals: "The Constitution of Medina, written shortly after hijra, addressed some points regarding the civil and religious situation for the Jewish communities living within the city from an Islamic perspective. For example, the constitution stated that the Jews "will profess their religion, and the Muslims theirs", and they "shall be responsible for their expenditure, and the Muslims for theirs". Rarely did Jews live with such freedom. After the Battle of Badr, the Jewish tribe of Banu Qaynuqa allegedly breached treaties and agreements with Muhammad. Islam's Prophet regarded this as casus belli and besieged the Banu Qaynuqa. Upon surrender the tribe was expelled.[4] The following year saw the expulsion of the second tribe, the Banu Nadir, accused of planning to kill The Prophet Muhammad. The third major Jewish tribe in Medina, Banu Qurayza was eliminated when the Muslims besieged their fortifications not long after the fall of the Banu Nadir, an event reported in Surah 33:25-27 of the Qur'an.[5]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Evan Zuesse, your authorative language here may fool some into believing lies. You state that the Qur'an stresses anti-semitism. Here you will find truth: Note the verses that hold Jews in esteem: As with all scriptures, passages in the Qur'an must be read within the proper context. The Qur'an was not just revealed to Muslims, but to all people, including Jews and Christians. Prophet Muhammad (Salla Allah Ta'ala Alaihi Wa Salam) was in the line of previous Prophets of Allah, including Prophets Abraham, Moses and Jesus, and the Qur'an is in the line of previous scriptures revealed by Allah. The Qur'an does not condemn the Semitic race and, in fact, accords Jews a special status given their shared prophetic traditions with Islam. The Qur'an instead criticizes those Jews who turned away from Allah's authentic message and admonishes those who scorned and ridiculed Prophet Muhammad(Salla Allah Ta'ala Alaihi Wa Salam) and the message of the Qur'an. Such criticism is similar to the criticism against Jews found in other scriptures, including the Bible, and should be taken by all people as a reminder and warning against forsaking and straying from the authentic message of Allah. Such specific criticism has never been interpreted by learned scholars of the Qur'an to incite hatred against all Jewish people and should not be confused with anti-Semitism. The Qur'an speaks extensively about the Children of Israel (Bani Isra'il) and recognizes that the Jews (al-Yahud) are, according to lineage, descendants of Prophet Abraham through his son Isaac and grandson Jacob. They were chosen by Allah for a mission: وَلَقَدْ اخْتَرْنَاهُمْ عَلَى عِلْمٍ عَلَى الْعَالَمِينَ And We chose them (the Children of Israel) above the 'Alamin (mankind, and jinns) [during the time of Musa (Moses)] with knowledge(44:32) and Allah raised among them many Prophets and bestowed upon them what He had not bestowed upon many others: وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسَى لِقَوْمِهِ يَا قَوْمِ اذْكُرُوا نِعْمَةَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ إِذْ جَعَلَ فِيكُمْ أَنْبِيَاءَ وَجَعَلَكُمْ مُلُوكًا وَآتَاكُمْ مَا لَمْ يُؤْتِ أَحَدًا مِنْ الْعَالَمِينَ And (remember) when Musa (Moses) said to his people: "O my people! Remember the Favour of Allah to you, when He made Prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns, in the past)." (5:20) He exalted them over other nations of the earth and granted them many favors; ....for the rest of the article: http://www.quranicstudies.com/articles/peace-in-the-quran/is-there-anti-semitism-in-the-quran.html Also you seem to somehow conclude that those who denounce capitalism or bring some of the internal contradictions and failings of neo-liberal economic practices to light are somehow anti-Semites. How have you arrived at such a disconnected conclusion? يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اذْكُرُوا نِعْمَتِي الَّتِي أَنْعَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَأَنِّي فَضَّلْتُكُمْ عَلَى الْعَالَمِينَ O Children of Israel! Remember My Favour which I bestowed upon you and that I preferred you to the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns) (of your time period, in the past). (2:47 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Also, I do not doubt that there is current hatred and persecution of Jews by some Arabs, especially the radical Jihadists who I have no sympathies for, as these people ar indeed damaged beyond repair by their backward religious idiologies and ignorance. But these people are on the fringes, and continued aggression, hegemony and arrogance of Western powers, including Israel, only serves as a recruitment tool of the Jihadists worldwide who prey on those are disenfranchised, impoverished and marginalized by the forces of capitalism. Israel could do much to improve relations even among those people in the region, if it were to seek real peace rather than stall while continuing to abuse Palestinians and steal more of their lands. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Evan Zuesse, thank you for facts and historical perspective on the matter of Arab-Muslim persecution and injustices towards Jews. Those were terrible times for Jews, as they were for many other persecuted peoples as wars and conflicts raged anywhere there were civilizations. Your point, I believe, is that Jews have been persecuted by Arabs. Yes they have. But in modern times Jews and Muslims and Christians and Druse and others lived in relative harmony in the land that is now Israel. For an article on the damage caused by the "seige mentality" that was brought on by ancient and modern (European) persecution and is encouraged by Zionists, and how this form of thinking plays out today: http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/the-pathology-of-evil/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Evan Zuesse, While I cannot find any direct family lineage between Yasir Arafat and Haj Amin el-Hussaini (perhaps the term "Uncle" was used in political context, such as Uncle Sam, Uncle Mao, Uncle Joe, etc), I do know however that much of what you say about Amin el Hassaini is true. He was a non-compromising anti-Zionist, and he was instrumental in carrying out uprizings and bloodbaths against Jews in the 1920s onward until after the Arab defeat in 1948. His reverence by many Arabs could be viewed through the same lens that Native American Chiefs Cochise, Geranimo or Pontiac were in attempting to hang onto their lands. Many Palestinian Arabs were becoming increasingly alarmed by the influx of immigrant Jews,the population of which bloomed from less that 7% in 1900 to about 20% by the late 20s. Some of these people were incidedto murdering Jews in two prominent uprisings that the British couldn't control. But the Zionists kept coming, just as the Europeans kept coming into the newly-founded US. The difference between US armed forces massacring indigenous American people and driving them from their lands and containing survivors on reservations and Israel doing the same to Palestinian natives is that there were no UN resolutions nor Geneva Convention mandates when Europeans colonizied the Americas. These bodies and laws make colonizing other people's lands illegal now. Yet Zionists don't recognize international laws and human rights protocol. If they did, they surely wouldn't continue expanding onto Palestinian lands. Besides, if there was as much hatred by Arabs towards Jews as you imply, then that begs the question, "why would Zionists insist on moving the Jewish people into the very area of the world where they were so despised and hated? The answer is that Jews weren't hated by Muslims or Christians with whom they had lived in peace for hundreds of years in Palestine. It wasn't until hordes of immigrant Jews with no connection to the land began upsetting the balance and imposing cultural and demographic shifts that ther was a problem. So it wasn't, as you assert, that Arabs hated Jews all along that brought conflict; it was that immigrant Jews and their belligerant Zionist leaders brought trouble to the formerly peaceful land of Palestine. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 It seems to me that Iran probably has nuclear weapons ambitions, as they see Israel, who has never complied with or acknowledged IAEA inspections as a regional threat. A MAD policy, similar to what US-Russia has maintained since the 50s would probably check Israel's aggressive expansionist goals and balance the power more justly in the region. Of course Israel and the West reject this , as their hegemony and control of resources will suffer. Time will tell if the strategic moves of Iran will succeed in shifting the balance or if reactionary recklessness will plunge the world into yet another real crisis. I have no sympathies for religious nut bags of any kind. Secularism in government is imperative for liberty. Mullahs and Zionists both are impediments to justice. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Stuart Goldbarg, in regards to your comment, "In the mid 1800s the Ottomans entrusted the governance of the the (Old) city of Jerusalem to the Congregation Beth El (Kehillat Bet El). In 1948, the Arab legion forced all of the Jews out of the West Bank and and Old City. Where were these gentile bleeding hearts when the Arabs moved into the houses taken from Jews and held for 18 years before they were recaptured?" Mr.Goldbarg, I remind you that by May 19, 1948 when the purge of Jerusalems Jews occurred, the war had been well underway, with many thousands of Palestinians murdered and displaced by acts of Jewish terror. The purge of the Old Quarter of Jerusalem was a REACTION to initial Zionist aggression and intrusion into the lands of others. As you've conceded, the Ottoman's entrusting the governance of Old Jerusalem to the Jews in the mid 1800s is tastament to the harmony in which the various communities of the region lived before Zionist's dreams of dominance and takeover prevailed later. The situation today is a direct result of Zionism and aggression by imported people who were imposed on innocent cultures. ALL VIOLENCE IN THE REGION IS THE RESULT OF THIS FACT. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For anyone who wants the truth of what President Ahmadinejad actually said, not the incessent lies of what he said that are parroted by our ignorant puppet heads on the nightly news, here are links to his 2005 thru 2007 speeches: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iran/2005/iran-050918-irna02.htm And here is what he said at the UN conference on racism where 40 Western ministers walked out: "After World War II, by exploiting the Holocaust and under the pretext of protecting the Jews they made a nation homeless with military expeditions and invasion. (BBC translation from speech transcript in Persian supplied by the Islamic Republic of Iran News Network.) Jewish migrants, he said, had been sent from Europe and the US after World War II "in order to establish a totally racist government in the occupied Palestine". Applause He continued: "And in fact, in compensation for the dire consequences of racism in Europe, they helped bring to power the most cruel and repressive racist regime in Palestine." ...and this is his speech at Columbia University that engendered much hatred and condemnation: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6889 Except for his denial of homosexuality in Iran, I find little fault in whar Mr. Ahmadinejad has said. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Has anyone here noticed how the media focus shifted from President Ahmedinejad's support of UN charges of Israeli war crimes committed in Gaza when it was suddenly announced that Iran had a second, "hidden" facility (that was in plain sight of our spy sattelites and has been know about since the first shovel of dirt was excavated during the Bush admin.)? Funny how quickly the media reacts to scripts it is given. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2894821400057137878# 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Cheryl, President Obama grasps the truth of the situation, I'm sure, as he is a student of history, and he has counciled with Professor Rashid Khalidi. You would benefit, I think if you read some of Professor Khalidi's works: Also, this just in: http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/spip.php?article1098 Just as Nazi war criminals spent their later years looking over their shoulders, perhaps justice will one day come to Israeli war criminals. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Israel's so-called 'War of Independance" is a misnomer, as it implies that Israel was under domination by a superior power, like all REAL wars of independance. Israel had no war of independance, except from the British who lost control of their mandate to Zionist forces. The King David Hotel terrorist act was an example of Israel's cowardly deeds as Zionist forces swept across the land in early 1948, killing and terrorizing everyone in their path. ""The Zionists were by far the more powerful and better organized force, and by May 1948, when the state of Israel was formally established, about 300,000 Palestinians already had been expelled from their homes or had fled the fighting, and the Zionists controlled a region well beyond the area of the original Jewish state that had been proposed by the UN. Now it's then that Israel was attacked by its neighbors - in May 1948; it's then, after the Zionists had taken control of this much larger part of the region and hundreds of thousands of civilians had been forced out, not before." p132 Understanding Power: The Indispensable Chomsky The fact that the rights of the majority, 67% of the population, were violated is suppressed in the media. Why in the world would you think it is legitimate for 33% of a population to seize land and carve up the land into 7 parts? Why in the world should 67% of a population ever accept that? These population stats, which highlight just how undemocratic the UN proposal really was, are almost never mentioned in US media. The 1947 proposal was not the first land division scheme, the Peel Commission suggested a partition plan in 1937. Also if you look into it, the Zionists had no intention of accepting any fair partition. As Ben-Gurion himself said in 1937, "No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of Eretz Israel." (see p162 Fateful Triangle The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians) http://www.representativepress.org/IsraelHistory.html Jerusalem, for centuries before 1917 was under Arab control. Jews, Arabs and Muslims lived there in peace: By the time General Allenby took Jerusalem from the Ottomans in 1917, the new city was a patchwork of neighborhoods and communities, each with a distinct ethnic character. This continued under British rule, as the New City of Jerusalem grew outside the old city walls and the Old City of Jerusalem gradually emerged as little more than an impoverished older neighborhood. One of the British bequests to the city was a town planning order requiring new buildings in the city to be faced with sandstone and thus preserving some of the overall look of the city, even as it grew. During the 1930s, two important new institutions, the Hadassah Medical Center and Hebrew University were founded in Jerusalem's Mount Scopus. Main residential areas of Jerusalem in 1947British rule marked a period of growing unrest. Arab resentment at British rule and the influx of Jewish immigrants (by 1948 one in six Jews in Palestine lived in Jerusalem) boiled over in anti-Jewish riots in Jerusalem in 1920, 1929, and the 1930s that caused significant damage and several deaths. The Jewish community organized self-defense forces in response to the Jerusalem pogrom of April, 1920 and later disturbances; while other Jewish groups carried out bombings and attacks against the British, especially in response to suspected complicity with the Arabs and restrictions on immigration during World War II imposed by the White Paper of 1939. The level of violence continued to escalate throughout the 1930s and 1940s. In July 1946 members of the underground zionist group Irgun blew up a part of the King David Hotel, where the British forces were temporarily located, an act which led to the death of many civilians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jerusalem So, it wasn't until a large influx of migrant Jews upset the tranquility and harmony, that there was a problem. In short, Zionism and the arrogance that it brings is the problem, not intolerant Arabs. The Palestinian Arabs have traditionally and historically befriended Jews and Christians from a period of the last Crusades until the overwhelming influx of immigrant Jews threatened their cultural and demographic stability. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 You're welcome, Thoroughly Disgusted. Yes..the land should once again become a land with equal rights and opportunity and peace for its inhabitants, as it was before Zionists began massive infiltration early in the last century. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 You are welcome, Mr. Edwards. I have great admiration and respect for much that is good in all religions. Reflection and atonement is a tradition that, if practiced often in all cultures, would lead to peace. Yom Kippur exemplifies the righteousness of much that is Judaic. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 On Condition oOf Anonomy, I have ceased posting during Yom Kippur, but I would like to address your post after the Day of Atonement has passed. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I look forward to our discussion, Mr. Roberts. Thank you for your civility. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 A Letter to President Carter: http://one-state.net/davisson.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Relocation and ethnic cleansing is not the answer to a viable Israel, as numerous documents have shown. It is ironic that Sharon's settlemrnt-building plan has led to the inevitable collapse of the Zionist State, but a more just State of Israel will emerge from today's strife, barring any catastrophic acts of the regime in Jerusalem. For some good reads on this inevitability and the possibilities for Israel: http://one-state.net/essential.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 If by Arabs you mean Palestinians, the reason they don't move willingly is because they are in their homes. Many of them have already been forced to move by Israeli forces, and they are determined not to let their Nakba happen again. You, Mr. Edwards, would probably not want to move either if a powerful military force was trying to drive you from your home. where would you go if your home was bulldozed today? Would you flee to Mexico if Canadian citizens and their relatives from all over the world decended upon your neighborhood with tanks and soldiers to drive you out? Maybe, flee to the carribean?. or back to Europe, the likely home of your ancestors, your 'tribe"? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Out of respect for the Jewish Day of Atonement, I will temporarily cease posting here at midnight, Jerusalem time. In the meantime, I hope that you reflect on your aversion to truths posted here: Israel captured Arab East Jerusalem, including the Old City, from Jordan during the 1967 Middle East war. After the city's capture, Moshe Dayan, commander of the Israeli forces, promised Muslim leaders that they would retain administrative control of Islamic holy sites, including the Temple Mount. http://www.archaeology.org/0003/newsbriefs/flap.html For the other side of the story: http://www.templeinstitute.org/aliya_temple_mount.htm Weighing these two sides, one based on secular fact, the other based on religious belief, I would have to side with the secular view. Muslims have legal control of their Holy Mount. Many Jews believe this violates their traditions. For practical purposes and in the interest of safety, the secular government in Jerusalem closed the site during this period. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Once again someone is attacked for bringing truth to this forum: http://www.templeinstitute.org/archive/25-01-05.htm 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Peace be with you, Michael Levin and Rabbi Brant Rosen. Thank you for this post. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 continued.... "PalMon reports that settlements are built on less than three percent of the area of the West Bank. "However, due to the extensive network of settler roads and restrictions on Palestinians accessing their own land, Israeli settlements dominate more than 40 percent of the West Bank." It also informs about how Israeli settlements are linked to each other and to Israel by an extensive network of "bypass roads". "All bypass roads have a 50–75m buffer zone on each side, where no construction is allowed. These buffer zones have led to a great loss of agricultural and privately owned Palestinian land," it informs. Whilst illegally built on confiscated Palestinian land, these roads are forbidden for use by Palestinians. They consolidate Israel's creation of a system of Apartheid in the West Bank and fracture communities across Palestine, informs PalMon. "In August of 2008 there were 794 kilometres of by-pass roads in the West Bank." To date (December 17, 2008), PalMon reports, about 40 kilometres of "fabric of life" roads, including 44 tunnels and underpasses, were completed. In addition, some five kilometres are under construction and another 40 kilometres and 18 tunnels are planned. SETTLEMENTS DILAPIDATE NATURAL RESOURCES PalMon informs that Israeli settlements are the cause of great inequalities in access to natural resources between Israelis and Palestinians. "Many settlements are built on prime agricultural land confiscated from Palestinians, or over key water resources such as the Western Aquifer basin, springs and wells." Israeli West Bank settlers domestically consume 280 litres of water per day, per person compared to 86 litres per day available for Palestinians in the West Bank -- only 60 of which are considered potable, it reports The World Health Organization recommends a minimum of 100 litres per day –- meaning that settlers utilize far more than double the water required, while Palestinians do not approach the minimum. "But only looking at domestic use is misleading. The brunt of water resources consumed by Israel are for farming and industrial purposes. When one looks at these numbers, the inequality between Israel and Palestinian resource sharing grows dramatically' adds PalMon network. "It is also misleading to look at the amount of land actually ‘settled' in the West Bank (3 percent), as opposed to the more than 40 percent of West Bank residential and vital agricultural land confiscated around the settlements themselves." In line with the Israeli organisation ICAHD findings regarding "brutalities" committed in the occupied territories, PalMon also reports that Israeli settlers often carry out violent attacks against Palestinians and their property with complete legal immunity, and often with more than implicit support from the military itself. "In fact, Israeli soldiers often protect and assist settlers, and legal proceedings are rarely brought against them." The network reports that between 80 and 90 percent of the files opened against Israeli settlers following attacks on Palestinians and their property are regularly closed by the Israeli police without prosecution. For more: http://www.indepthnews.net/news/news.php?key1=2009-07-26 19:52:54&key2=1 "We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them" Ariel Sharon...1973 http://www.greenleft.org.au/2006/685/8151 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I look forward to your discussion, Mr. Roberts. We do view this issue through different lenses, and I also remember the Holocaust revelations during my childhood. I cannot, however, condone injustices against a people who had nothing to do with this horrific event. Please consider the injustice of this during Yom Kippur: "The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD), a non-violent, direct-action organisation that "opposes and resists" Israeli demolition of Palestinian houses in the Occupied Territories, estimates that 24,145 houses have been demolished in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza since 1967. According to the United Nations, 4,247 houses were demolished during its ‘Operation Cast Lead' in Gaza, through which Israel killed more than 1,500 Palestinians, an overwhelming majority of whom were civilians, and injured over 5,000 people against 13 Israeli dead, in three weeks only since December 27, 2008. Regarding the Israeli army and authorities abuses against Palestinian population under their occupation as well as the Israel settlements steady plans, the Israel organisation ICAHD informs that its activists "gained direct knowledge of the brutalities of the occupation". In view of that, ICAHD says that it has expanded its "resistance activities to other areas -- land expropriation, settlement expansion, by-pass road construction, policies of "closure" and "separation" the wholesale uprooting of fruit and olive trees and more." ICAHD states that "the fierce repression of Palestinian efforts to "shake off" the Occupation following the latest Intifada has only added urgency to our efforts". (See http://www.icahd.org/eng) HALF A MILLION SETTLERS... SO FAR On its part, the Palestine Monitor (PalMon), a network of independent Palestinian writers, political analysts and researchers, set up in the year 2000, provides full information on Israeli Settlements. (See http://palestinemonitor.org). Alongside rigorously researched news and updates, information, fact sheets and regular political analyses, PalMon publishes first hand eyewitness accounts of life in the occupied territories. According to its fact sheet -- updated on December 17, 2008 -- there were already 121 Israeli settlements and 102 Israeli outposts built illegally on Palestinian land occupied by Israel in 1967. "All of these settlements and outposts are illegal under international law and have been condemned by numerous United Nations Security Council resolutions. Israeli outposts are considered illegal under Israeli law", the network stressed. "These settlements and outposts are inhabited by a population of some 462,000 Israeli settlers," notes PalMon and adds that "191,000 Israelis are living in settlements around Jerusalem and a further 271,400 are further spread throughout the West Bank". "The settler population has grown consistently between 4-6percent per year over the last two decades, a much higher rate of growth than Israeli society as a whole (1.5percent)." According to PalMon data compiled some eight months ago "around 385,000 settlers in 80 settlements will be located between the Separation Wall and the Green Line if Israel holds to projected plans". It adds that in 2008, amidst the ‘settlement freeze' agreed upon under former president George W. Bush, during the Annapolis summit he organised months before ending his mandate, tenders for new settlement building increased by 550 percent from 2007. "Actual settlement construction has increased by 30 percent since the launch of the new round of peace talks. Settlement building around Jerusalem has increased by a factor of 38," according to PalMon. "A total of 9,000 further housing units have been approved in East Jerusalem, and approximately 2,600 new housing units are being built east of the Separation Wall, comprising 55percent of all settlement construction activity." SETTLEMENTS DOMINATE 40 PERCENT OF WEST BANK 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 It's just a bit hypocritical for all those here to declare Iran out of bounds on failing to disclose of it's nuclear site: Israel refuses to co-operate with UN on nuclear inspections http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2055686270 As Mr. Lambert says, it's old news anyway. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Let's dissect some of Netanyahu's speech: "We ask the Palestinians to finally do what they have refused to do for 62 years: Say yes to a Jewish state. Just as we are asked to recognize a nation-state for the Palestinian people, the Palestinians must be asked to recognize the nation state of the Jewish people. The Jewish people are not foreign conquerors in the Land of Israel. This is the land of our forefathers." Palestinians have "recognized" the State of Israel since Arafat delared so in 1988: To avoid losing the opportunity, Arafat went further at a press conference the next day, saying, "Our desire for peace is strategic and not a temporary tactic." He went down the checklist: •The PLO accepted UN Resolution 242 •The PLO promised recognition of Israel •The PLO renounced terrorism http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_plo_israel_exist_1988.php To imply otherwise, as Netanyahu has done, is essentially a lie. Netanyahu continues, "We are not strangers to this land. It is our homeland. As deeply connected as we are to this land, we recognize that the Palestinians also live there and want a home of their own. We want to live side by side with them, two free peoples living in peace, prosperity and dignity." Jews have Always been a minority in the land, and their control of the land has been relatively short: The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine “The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David’s conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule.” Illene Beatty, “Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan.” http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html#early Mr. Netanyahu fails to acknowledge other peoples right to their lands also. He says,"We are not strangers to this land. It is our homeland. As deeply connected as we are to this land, we recognize that the Palestinians also live there and want a home of their own. We want to live side by side with them, two free peoples living in peace, prosperity and dignity." The words, "...it is our homeland" and....."Palestinians also live there and want a home of their own..." The obvious implication is that Palestinians want to live on the Jewish homeland. This is arrogance beyond belief! When he talks of a Palestinian state, he speaks of a non-contiguous group of Palestinian islands surrounded and carved up by Jewish-only roads connecting hundreds of Jewish colonies and "security" checkpoints and walls preventing any free travel and commerce. This new 'peace offering Netanyahu peoposes is no better than the 2000 Oslo proposal: http://www.apartheidmasked.org/?p=121 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 While some Arabs may hold animosity towards the West from the Crusades, modern animosity is engendered by Western influence and hegemony and control of their governments. And the reason for that hegemony is energy resources in the region. I have no sympathies for religious nutbags of any stripe, but to impose our political and cultural will on others is arrogant and presumptuous, just as Western powers dividing up other's lands is arrogant and presumptuous. This behavior is what wars are made of, and Palestinians have been resisting and fighting for justice for more than 60 years now. The world is finally waking up to who the real victims in this conflict are, as Netanyahu continues to try to confuse the dimwits among us by once again invoking the Holocaust victims for political gain. He should be damned, not praised for this sacrilege. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Roberts, thank you for your thoughtful correspondence here. Civil discourse is appreciated by me. In response to your post, "(1) Zionism is, long and short, the movement for the Jews to return to their Biblical homeland, including the “revitalization of Jerusalem to its former glory.” Theodor Herzel became its main champion. He died early after 1900, but his supporters kept plodding away. Success came with the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and the British White Paper on Palestine of 1922 (actually written in 1921). The league of Nations and the British - with Churchill designated as the protector - divided up the Palestine Territory into two parts: 73% for Palestine and 27% for Israel." This is the very core of the problem, as #1. the area of Israel is the historical homeland to many people, not only Jews. Jerusalem has been the cultural center of Jews, Christians, Muslims and others. http://www.centuryone.com/hstjrslm.html No one group should have claim to it. For Britain , an outside force, to deed land that never belonged to British people to the minority population of that land is unjust. As you noted, originally, the plan was for Palestinians to have the greater share of the land, but by 1947 the Zionists , who had grown by immigration from 7% of the population to 33%) ended up with 53% of the total land granted to them. In 1948, Zionist forces overran those boundries (admittedly to protect Jewish outposts - but those outposts shouldn't have been there) and in subsequent wars, Israel ended up with 78 percent of the original mostly-Palestinian land. This 78% doesn't include another 10 or 12 percent land that has had Jewish colonies built on it since 1973. That leaves Palestinians about 10% of their original land. No wonder they are pissed! As for your belief that Jews didn't take Palestinian's lands, that belief is false: Benny Morris considers that the killings and massacres occurred "[l]ike [in] most wars involving built-up areas."[2] During the first stage of the war, the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine, Haganah operatives had been cautioned against harming women and children but Irgun [and Lehi] didn't practice this distinction, while "Palestinian Arab militias often deliberately targeted civilians."[2] Due to the fact the British Mandate was not yet over, both sides were not able to set up regular POW camps and therefore didn't take prisoners.[2] During the regular war, the fighting armies were more or less disciplined and "the killings of civilians and prisonners of war almost stopped, except for the series of atrocities committed by the IDF troops".[2] Despite their rhetoric, Arab armies committed few atrocities and no large-scale massacre of prisoners took place when circumstances might have allowed them to happen, as when they took the Old City of Jerusalem or the villages of Atarot, Neve Yaakov, Nitzanim, Gezer and Mishmar Hayarden.[2] On the contrary, on 28 May, when the inhabitants and fighters of the Old City surrendered, in fear for their lives, the Transjordanian Arab Legion protected them from the mob and even wounded or shot dead other Arabs.[18] With regard to massacres perpetrated by the IDF at the end of the war and particularly during Operation Hiram, where around 10 massacres occurred, Morris and Gelber have claimed that lack of discipline cannot explain the events.[2][19] Yoav Gelber points out the "hard feelings [of the soldiers] towards the Palestinians" and the fact that the Palestinians had not fled like in former operations.[19] Benny Morris thinks that they were related to a "general vengefulness and a desire by local commanders to precipitate a civilian exodus" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_War 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 It seems that these posts are inarguable, as there is no further discussion. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 This just in..... Israel planning a new settlement in East Jerusalem http://www.imemc.org/article/61743 How can anyone believe Netanyahu is willing to bargain, as he continues to stall for time and build new settlements on what is supposed to become Palestinian's Capital? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 One more article on human rightsviolations of Canada: http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/2002/msg05546.htm ...and Canada is the nation that you hold up here as a model of justice and righteousness??? It is little wonder that Canada supports Israel, as they both have long histories of apartheid and genocidal policies. Some magnificance, Mr. Shuster! 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Some issues covered in Center For Holocaust Studies papers filed by Professor Craven: http://www.mail-archive.com/pen-l@galaxy.csuchico.edu/msg30120.html http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/intro2.html Canada's recent past, from another source: http://thetyee.ca/Views/2008/04/30/TruthAndAbuse/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 N. shuster says,"For the first time in history, a legitimate state, the re-born Jewish state of israel, establish after a vote of the United Nations (when it was not dominated by tyrants and maniacs of the “third world” and their immoral lackeys) has to justify its legitimate existence and its right to defend itself. There is no precident for this sort of thing. Israel speaks with a clear voice and some listen, Canada being the most magnificent among them. Your puny efforts on behalf of the dark forces that confront the Jewish state will surely be frustrated. " Palestinians also have a right to defend themselves, Mr. Shuster. They have a right to protection , not abuse, by the occupiers. They have a right to not be driven from their homes, and the occupiers of their land have an obligation not to drive them from their homes. They have a right to food and water, not to be deprived of food and water by occupiers who cut them off from their farms, bulldoze and burn their crops and rip up their water and sewage lines. They havea right to travel freely in their own lands on their own roads, and to conduct commerce, but these rightsare denied by their occupiers. What Israel euphamistically deems their lands 'the Disputed Territories" is a lie, as the dispute was settled by the UN and Geneva Conventions long ago (Repeatedly!) These lands belong to Palestinians, and Israel continues to build Jewish-only colonies on them. How can Netanyahu claim that he is willing to bargain in good faith when he continues moving Palestinians off the land that he is supposed to be bargaining on? The issues are primarily about the land and the theft of that land by Israel. And Netanyahu's once again dragging the Holocaust before the UN and his 'Have you no shame" commentary were yet another pathetic conflation and portrayal of Israel the aggressor as Israel the victim. While the world shifts attention to Iran's nuclear ambitions, Israel once again temporarily gets off the hook, and the settlements keep growing as more stalling on peace talks seems to be enivitable. But another summit gives increasing power to the "third world" that you and your elitist kind here dispise, as the G8 is now the G20. Canada's decisions on the world stage will be less meaningful. Speaking of our benevolent friend, Canada, here is an article exposing their human rights violations that may (but probably not, as it will upset your limited and fixed world-view) interest you: http://aradicalblackfoot.blogspot.com/2005/01/papers-posted-at-center-for-holocaust.html James Craven ( Blackfoot name:Omahkohkiaayo i'poyi) is a friend of mine. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Also, Mr. Katz...Regarding the UN and it's deeding Israel to Zionists...There were borders established, but look what happened: http://apartheidresistance.com/2009/03/25/palestinian-loss-of-land-map/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Katz, you have pronounced the mythical version of the violence of the creation of Israel. Here is the truth, documented: The war begins “In December 1947, the British announced that they would withdraw from Palestine by May 15, 1948. Palestinians in Jerusalem and Jaffa called a general strike against the partition. Fighting broke out in Jerusalem’s streets almost immediately...Violent incidents mushroomed into all-out war...During that fateful April of 1948, eight out of thirteen major Zionist military attacks on Palestinians occurred in the territory granted to the Arab state.” “Our Roots Are Still Alive” by the People Press Palestine Book Project. Zionists’ disrespect of partition boundaries “Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution.” British author, Henry Cattan, “Palestine, The Arabs and Israel.” Culpability for escalation of the fighting “Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun, tells how ‘in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive...Arabs began to flee in terror...Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter’...The Israelis now allege that the Palestine war began with the entry of the Arab armies into Palestine after 15 May 1948. But that was the second phase of the war; they overlook the massacres, expulsions and dispossessions which took place prior to that date and which necessitated Arab states’ intervention.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.” For more: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html Also read some of finkelstein's works: Excerpt from synopsis of Image and Reality of the Israel Palestine Conflict New and Revise: "Norman Finkelstein goes on to look at the demographic origins of the Palestinians, referencing the work of Joan Peters and critiquing the influential studies of both Benny Morris and Anita Shapira, and closes by demonstrating that the casting of Israel as the innocent victim of Arab aggression in the June 1967 and October 1973 wars is not supported by the documentary record." In short, Mr. Katz, your beloved Israel is and always has been the aggressor. What was proposed by me at the beginning of this thread, that what Ahmadinejad said at the UN General Assembly was true. No one her has, so far been able to refute that assertion. Instead, I am accused of things I didn't say and we end up discussing unrelated distractions. This shifting of focus is what propagandists and spin artists do. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 In response to your comments, Mr. Katz... 1. Israelis target and kill many more civilians than do Palestinians: 123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,435 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information) Check out more statistics here: http://ifamericansknew.org/ You are passing misinformation when you say that Israeli troops don't target civilians: "In the six cases documented in the report, Human Rights Watch said it found no evidence that Palestinian fighters were present in the immediate area of the attack at the time. In three of the cases, drones fired missiles at children playing on rooftops in residential neighborhoods, far from any ground fighting, the report said. Human Rights Watch said it found no evidence to suggest that the children were acting as spotters, relaying IDF troop locations, or trying to fire a rocket from the roof." http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1246296537077 http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3739125,00.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/789876.html Unfortunately, JTA News sometimes withholds multiple link posts as possible spam. If this posts, I'll answer more of your arguements later, Mr. Katz. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Finally! Arguement rather than name calling. How mature. Mr. Shuster and Mr. Katz. Thank you. "BUT, compared to other countries, America’s “sins”, whether in Latin America or elsewhere fade into insignificance" The killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent people worldwide in preventable wars and military interventions by US forces is hardly insignificant, Mr. Shuster. Just one such death or maiming of one of your family members in one of these actions would give you perspective. Any time the US sends aid to starving refugees or areas of famine it is for political and strategic gain; otherwise millions of people who are starving worldwide because of economic and social instability wouldn't be starving, as we would magnanomously be feeding them. For how it all works: "Aid appears to have established as a priority the importance of influencing domestic policy in the recipient countries" — Benjamin F. Nelson, International Affairs Budget: Framework for Assessing Relevance, Priority and Efficiency, (Washington, DC: General Accounting Office, October 30, 1997) http://www.globalissues.org/article/35/us-and-foreign-aid-assistance Also, Mr. shuster...you state: "You obviously have not experienced first-hand the benevolence of those countries that you hold in high esteem." You and others here continue to equate criticism of Israel with support of Israel's enemies. What countries are you accusing me of holding "in high esteem? I've stated here in various threads that I only support SECULAR governments. I also support innocent victims of aggression, whereever they may live. It is illogical to conclude by my statements here that I hold any non-secular government "in high esteem'. Your referencing the "glorious sixties" rings hollow with me, as I was too involved as a US Marine occupier of two Asian countries during the late sixties to pay any attention to our political scene. I am far from naive. I suggest that you research: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Great_Game and read: http://www.amazon.com/Taliban-Militant-Islam-Fundamentalism-Central/dp/0300089023 Another great read by a real US patriot: Sex and War by Stan Goff ... Here is a pdf copy These works will shake off some of the myths you apparently adhere to. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Once again I bring truth to this venue and I get attacked for that truth. It is a lie that Ahmadinejad is a Holoocaust denier. It is a lie that Ahmadinejad said that he will wipe Israel off the map. These are but two of the many lies that are propagated by the ignorant here who are too stupid to seek truth and too blinded by their lifelong false beliefs (based on lies and propaganda) to look at evidence that may be uncomfortable. This is a classic case of cognitive dissonance, and it is why we are so easily led to war by those who profit in blood. So much of what we think we know, so many of the national and cultural constructs that we are imbued with since childhood are false. "The US is spreading freedom and democracy around the world", for example, is a lie, as the US has repeatedly undermined and overthrown democratically-elected governments and imposed ruthless dictators and death squads on people seeking liberty. (Allende/Pinochet is an example, and the bloody conflicts in Nicaragua and El Salvador, and Guatamala are others. Pavlovi was imposed on the people of Iran, which led to the 1979 revolt (blowback) and the situation we are faced with today in Iran. It's about Empire. And whatever lies and propaganda that can be used to perpetuate and empower the Empire is employed for the good of the empire as it acquires resources, expands and exploits labor for the powerful who control it. That my truthful comments here, which don't, by the way support Ahmadinejad or the Mullahs (I believe strongly in secularism) can elicit such vitriolic response when merely state the truth, is testimony to how easily led and totally brainwashed many of us are. Perfect subjects for the empire. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ...and some of my favorite commentary: "Israel's massive invasions of three Arab countries in 1967 was/is also presented as another defensive war, wherein if it is ever admitted that Israel is the party that started the war, the admission is quickly followed by the "explanation" (hasbara in Hebrew, which is also the word for "propaganda") that it was a "preemptive" war in which Israel was "defending" itself. This also applies to Israel's 1978 and 1982 and 2006 invasions of Lebanon, its continued occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, its siege of Gaza, and its massacres against the Palestinians there in the last three weeks. The logic goes as follows: Israel has the right to occupy Palestinian land, lay siege to Palestinian populations in Bantustans surrounded by an apartheid wall, starve the population, cut them off from fuel and electricity, uproot their trees and crops, and launch periodic raids and targeted assassinations against them and their elected leadership, and if this population resists these massive Israeli attacks against their lives and the fabric of their society and Israel responds by slaughtering them en masse, Israel would simply be "defending" itself as it must and should." http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10221.shtml 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 "The trouble with the world is not that people know too little, but that they know so many things that ain't so." Mark Twain Following are examples of conventional wisdom about Israel: Conventional Wisdom About Israel/Palestine: When Palestinians kill Israelis they are irrational "terrorists" contributing to the cycle of violence; but when Israelis kill Palestinians it is reasonable to expect that this "retaliation" will lead to peace. When the UN voted in 1997 on General Assembly Resolution 52/52, 155 countries were wrong and only the U.S. and Israel were right. No one cared about Palestine until the Jews came and "fixed it up". The Palestinians didn't care about their homes and land. They were happy to leave and live in refugee camps. Jews need a larger "safe haven" because maybe somewhere, someday, some fascist nation might once again oppress Jews. This danger is more real than Israel’s clear and present oppression of Palestinians. The West Bank is a good "safe haven" because Jewish people are very safe there. It is the responsibility of other Arab nations to solve the Palestinian refugee problem which the Israelis created. Events which happened 3,000 years ago are relevant to today, but 1948 and 1967 were a long time ago, and bygones should be bygones. The lesson of the Nazi holocaust is not that it is wrong to oppress people based on their ancestry/religion; the lesson of the Nazi holocaust is that it is wrong to oppress Jews based on their ancestry/religion. Because some Palestinians are terrorists, all Palestinians deserve to be punished. As Ariel Sharon said: Settlements in the occupied territories need to expand because of "natural population growth". It is natural and necessary for these settlers to have birth rates averaging more than seven children per family. It was irrational for the Palestinians to react violently to the Zionist movement in the first half of the 20th century because, after all, the goal of the Zionists was merely to transform their land into a Jewish theocracy in which Arabs would be second-class citizens in their own country. The Palestinians were paranoid in believing that this might actually happen. Anyone who has compassion for Palestinians is anti-Semitic and hates all Jewish people. The UN Security Council was dispassionate and objective when it granted Israel's right to exist a few years after the Nazi Holocaust, but was "just kidding" when it passed 242 & 338. The Israeli settlers deserve ten times as much clean water per capita as the Palestinians because – well, they just do. (http://tinyurl.com/5bceou) It is an unknowable mystery why Ariel Sharon took hundreds of troops to occupy the Temple Mount on September 28, 2000, but it couldn't possibly have been because he wanted to incite Palestinian anger and thereby torpedo the peace talks. God gave this land to the Jews. God is a racist. The Palestinians need to make more concessions for peace. Their homes, their land, and their basic freedoms are not enough. When Israel takes land militarily and then gives some back, it is making a "concession". When Palestinians lose land because they cannot defend against the Israeli war machine, they are not making a concession. The story of the holocaust at Auschwitz cannot be told enough, but the massacre at Deir Yassin should be forgotten. When NPR correspondents such as Linda Gradstein and Eric Weiner file reports which suggest that the Israeli government might not be granting Arab Israelis exactly the same rights as Jewish Israelis, then this only proves that the media is biased against Israel. It's not good to mix religion and government; unless the religion is Judaism, in which case it's a splendid idea. Radical Palestinian sympathizers who blame all Jewish people for the actions of Israel should be condemned for equating Judaism with Zionism; but radical Jews who dismiss Jewish Palestinian sympathizers as "self-loathing Jews" are entitled to their opinion. The settlers have established lives in the settlements. It would be an unthinkable outrage to ask them to uproot themselves and move for the sake of peace. But it’s reasonable to ask this same thing of the Palestinians. News sources (e.g., NPR or CNN) which report specific details of Israeli oppression against Palestinians (e.g., severe drinking water restrictions, etc.) are biased against Israel. How do we know they’re biased against Israel? Because these stories aren’t true. How do we know these stories aren’t true? Because they’re biased against Israel. The Nazis’ self-characterization as the "Master Race" was a pathetic rationalization for oppression, but the Jews really are "God’s Chosen People" and thus are justified in oppressing Palestinians. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Some of those who post here are willfully ignorant. Again, shooting the messenger is all they can do without good information and truths. You may read this article or remain ignorant and unwilling to seek truth; it doesn't matter to me: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Ari H, your post,"Once again there are those here who “slay the messenger”, when it is his message (which is true) that should be listened to. President Ahmadinejad’s words at the conference cannot be denied. ------------------------------------------------------------------- That says it all about David R Evans’ positions...no comment required…" is typical of your non-contributions to this venue, as you merely snipe at those who provide substance, but you use no real challenge nor commentary that would refute the words of those you disparage. Perhaps you would care to disclose specifically what you think is untruthful about what Mr. Ahmadinejad said at the conference? Careful...don't just spout misinformation and propagandized lies such as "he said he wants to drive Israel into the sea", or "he is a holocaust denier", as both of these claims of what he said are lies: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Once again there are those here who "slay the messenger", when it is his message (which is true) that should be listened to. President Ahmadinejad's words at the conference cannot be denied. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Re: the 'new forms of slavery" comment: "http://www.fidh.org/IMG/pdf/il1806a.pdf" The fact that any time at an international conference, anyone brings up legitimate charges against Israel, many Western ministers walk out, is testimony to what Ghadaffi says about thi small group of people dominating the politics and culture of nations worldwide. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 The international community "is impatiently waiting for the punishment of the aggressors and the murderers of the defenseless people of Gaza,” said Ahmadinejad." "It is no longer acceptable that a small minority would dominate the politics, economy and culture of major parts of the world by its complicated networks, and establish a new form of slavery, and harm the reputation of other nations, even European nations and the U.S., to attain its racist ambitions." War crimes charges by the UN confirm the first statement. 2% of US population is Jewish, yet our legislators are dictated to by AIPAC and other Jewish groups. What Mr. Ahmadinejad said was factual....So why the walkout? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Distress either makes one evaluate his distress (in this case, cognitive dissonance) or retrench and hide. I suspect that Will will retrench and hide. In any case, perhaps those here who support Israel should read this article: http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=776 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 It is a lie that Israel had negotiated in earnest, a peace agreement. Israel continues to offer nothing close to an acceptable deal. An example is the so-called Generous offer made at Oslo in 2000: http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf Cheryl, as evidence I point out that Netanyahu's government is even today refusing to halt the stealing of Palestinian lands and the expansion of Jew-only settlement colonies into Palestinian neighborhoods, and the Wall continues encroaching onto Palestinian rural areas and blocking farmers from their fields. When these fields are no longer accessable to Palestinian farmers, the land becomes permanent Israeli property according to Israeli law. This is hardly the behavior of a nation that bargains in good faith. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Nothing new here, just a story that is under the radar. From another who claims of Israel's desire to see Kennedy dead: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39631 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Marquis, if you cannot see that “ If anybody wants to shoot a bullet at us from anywhere, we will cut off his hands.” and “Israel has a right to defend itself” are statements with similar meaning, then as you say, "an explanation will never be enough." But I will explain anyway: Both are statements of Defensive attitude about exestential threats. And both are reasonable statements. But Israel is defending itself because against RETALIATORY attacks for its initial aggressive behavior. Iran's leader, while none too subtle at diplomacy, isn't, as you claim 'genocidal", as Iran, unlike Israel, hasn't mass murdered and displaced another people recently. Israel did in 1948, and Israel is still forcebly removing people from their homes and building colonies for newly-arrived Jews. Thomas Roberts, I come to this board in an attempt to offer truth to readers of this board who may otherwise be led by pervasive propaganda , misinformation and lies. You may want to see: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565# and: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589# Now to your challenge to me: (1) What is Zionism and how does it impact modern Israel? I would describe Zionism as the movement that is defined by the belief that Jews have an attachment to and a right to the land that was described in the Torah. This view is wrong, however, as Jews were only one of many groups of people (all genetically linked) who have inhabited that same area for millennia. (2) When was the first Palestinian state founded and when was it destroyed. (sic) If you had read The Iron Cage, The Palestinian Struggle For Statehood, or any of the other good works by Rashid Khalidi, you would not need to ask that loaded question. Palestine was recognized as the land of a distinct People, even by David Ben Gurion. The land they inhabited had borders redrawn over history, as did lands of nations worldwide. The Filistines are mentioned in the Torah and Bible. The Balfour Declaration of 1917 crushed any chance that Palestinians, unlike their other Arab neighbors, would ever be granted statehood by the Mandate powers. That surely wasn't the Palestinians fault that their land was given away to immigrating Jews by an outside power. Now a question for you: What did Osama bin Laden mean when he alluded to the "80 years of humiliation and disgrace" after he sent 15 Saudis 2 United Arab Emiratees, one Lebanese and one from Egyptian crashing into our buildings? And how is this all related? I'll skip the bonus question. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Yaakov Watkins, you cite and condemn Palestinians for their resistance strategies. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to how you, a lightly armed Palestinian under brutal occupation and oppression by the fourth most powerful, well-equipped and trained military on the planet would fight them. The means and the weapons Palestinians have are pathetic and few. How else do you suggest, can they throw off their oppressors? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 " If anybody wants to shoot a bullet at us from anywhere, we will cut off his hands." and "Israel has a right to defend itself" are statements with similar meaning, are they not? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Yes..Every report that I have read that includes testimony from Israeli and Palestinians on the ground in Gaza confirms what Brian Lewis has posted here. Every one! This is one of the reasons why Ahmadinejad (who, in my opinion is not the person who should be leading Iran) said that he wished to see the regime in Jerusalem pass into the pages of history. Israel has been an aggressive bully-state since 1947. It is like a rampaging mad elephant that continues taking up more and more space and terrorizing the villagers in the surrounding villages. Netanyahu and Lieberman speak for a large body of Israel's people who have been brainwashed into thinking that they are holier than their neighbors, and this blatant arrogance gives mandate to continue status quo to the hardliners in power. The world see this 'conflict" (even the term conflict should not be used for the Israeli/Palestinian situation, as "conflict" implies some semblance of balance, and the UN report clearly shows otherwise) as what it is. It's time that Israel acknowledges it's ways and changes them. There can be no good outcome for Israel if it continues to rage out of control. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 SP, there is nothing disingewnuous about my use of factual information here. Fact: Israels reason for attacking the people of Gaza had nothing to do with rocket attacks, as rockets had ceased being fired from Gaza during the Egyptian-brokered cease-fire. Hamas kept their end of the bargain despite repeated and gross violations of the agreement by Israel. It wasn't until after Israel's incursion into Gaza on Nov 4, an incursion which killed and captured members of the Palestinian's ELECTED governmental body that rocket fire from Hamas members resumed. You say," If at any one time Hamas or Hisbulah chooses to not dedicate themselves to the destruction of Jewry (it’s not just an Israeli thing), Israel will bring down the walls and assist in the peace process in ways you dream about. Until then, you are being quite dishonest in bringing these facts up against a people who should have wiped out the Hamas 8 years earlier when the missles started falling. Yes, Israel is to blame for not reacting earlier and allowing this nonsense to continue for so long. Given the Zionist goal of Greater Israel, how can you say that all Hezbollah and Hamas have to do is lay down their arms and peace will come? "... Zionists have never kept their aims secret. From Ben Gurion onwards they have made clear that the principle objective is to 'redeem' the Holy Land. 'Redemption' is the name of their game. It is a policy with which Palestinians can never be expected to reconcile themselves... "According to Zionist doctrine, land that is possessed collectively or individually by Jews is 'redeemed'. The war of 1948 left 22 per cent of Palestine in non-Jewish hands and it remained the duty of Zionists to complete the unfinished business." http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/npretzlik.htm The goal of Israel is to continue stealing land and moving people from that land or killing them for that land. "to the north, the Litani river [in southern Lebanon], to the northeast, the Wadi 'Owja, twenty miles south of Damascus; the southern border will be mobile and pushed into Sinai at least up to Wadi al-'Arish; and to the east, the Syrian Desert, including the furthest edge of Transjordan" (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 87) Click here to view the "Greater Israel" map that was submitted by the Zionists to the peace conference after WWI....Ben Gurion quote in 1918. http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story638.html This goal hasn't changed, and Israeli leaders are still intent on expansion, as evidenced by current and ongoing displacement of Palestinians. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ...and Cheryl and Dave123....Your point is??? Both of these gentlemen offerd thoughtful commentary on the issues. Although Al Marayati offered an apology the next day on the same radio show that he made his "Look at Israel as a suspect also" comment, I believe that at the time (within days of 9/11), it was important to look at ALL possible connections motives for a strike on our buildings and people. The jury is still out, as there is still much ongoing demand for a re-investigation of the events leading up to 9/11. In any case, the quotes and credentials you site here and in your links appear to be valid argument, and legitimate. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 “We wish the world will concentrate on the real issues: Iran, the nuclear proliferation, the terror that Iran is harboring and financing and training,” Gabriela Shalev, Israel’s ambassador to the United Nations, told JTA. “This takes us to a detour because we have to put so much energy and hasbara” -- public relations -- “into something which was born in sin and which is very, very damaging.” Bombing, burning and shooting to death innocent people like Israeli troops have done IS a real issue. The audacity and the denial of dignity to Palestinian victims by the Israeli Ambassador is typical of Israel and it's supporters. Also, while I agree with most of what you post here, David Mond, I would take issue with your statement that "no doubt, of course elswhere in the world, worse crimes are being committed...." How can there be any worse crime than blowing up innocent people? Many of these victims were children, some of them burned alive, screaming. Also, Israel's cry of victimhood as Israel continues to perpetrate aggressive acts and war crimes is sounding more hollow all the time. If Jews don't want to be condemned along with the Israeli government, then maybe they should distance themselves, as many good people have already done, from the racist brutal government of Israel, as the Zionist propaganda has long conflated Judaism and the good Jewish people with Israel and Zionist aspirations. They are two separate entities, but the propaganda has been very effective, and most of us believe that Jews = Israel. This brainwashing has now come home to roost, as real anti-semitism (not the false charges of anti-Semitism that have been leveled at anyone who challenges Israel's aggression) is on the rise. One often hears the charge that Islamic brothers worldwide need to condemn Jihadists and their violent acts and 'rein them in". It is also time for good Jewish groups to condemn the violent acts of Israel and rein it in. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For an article on a recent event that demonstrates how it all works: http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/6329 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For a check on the damage control over hard feelings about the attack on Gaza: "Fully 13% of the entire US House of Representatives, 56 members, traveled to Israel in the largest AIPAC-sponsored fact-finding visit by American politicians ever conducted. And the leaders of the two congressional groups, 25 Republicans for a week starting on August 2nd followed by 31 Democrats beginning on August 13th, were drawn from the top ranks of their respective parties. House Minority whip Eric Cantor headed the Republican group and House Majority leader Steny Hoyer led the Democrats." http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2009/09/02/the-best-congress-aipac-can-buy/ As for #9, Thomas Roberts, I propose that Israel's initial and continuing belligerance, and a relatively unbiased free press in Europe (unlike here in the US) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565# is the reason for widespread anti-Israeli sentiment (which you and propagandists conflate with anti-Semitism). Also.... Following are two distinct and separate sentences: 1. "I dislike Israel's policies of killing people and stealing their land." 2. "I like Jews and admire their tenacity, customs and rich cultural contributions to Western civilization." Both of these statements are true. However, if I dare utter the first, the second is immediately deemed a lie by irrational people who deem any challenge to Israel the words of a venemous anti-Semite. How can one hope for peace with this kind of illogical thinking that is fostered and propagated by Israel and Zionist supporters? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Nice comments, there, Mr. Edwards. Now, back to some logical discussion: It may surprise you to learn that most Muslims are not Jihadists. In fact, very few are. As with many social movements, especially violent ones, downtrodden and marginalized people are easily recruited into the ranks of reformers, especially when religion is used as a recruitment tool. Consider this: "Though negligible in the larger scheme of things, the chance that a convert will turn jihadist is much greater than that of someone born Muslim. That suggests that for those who turn violent, the act is more a matter of standing against the crowd rather than standing out from it. Radical Islamism seems to have become the magnet for some of the world's angriest people who feel the universe is out of joint and must be changed. For these converts, it is an ideology of revolt that is more attractive because of its crystalline hatred of the status quo than its theology. The "zeal of the convert" may be a cliché, but it is a true one that helps explain the presence of so many former non-Muslims in jihadist terror—and why terrorist leaders find them so useful. Another reason is that whether they have formal profiling programs or not, Western law-enforcement officials are inevitably going to be less likely to suspect someone who looks like one of their own." http://www.slate.com/id/2173561/pagenum/2 Capitalism breeds discontent as empires acquire resources and cheap labor all over the planet. Powerful states routinely topple regimes in order to impose business-friendly political bodies. Poverty insures cheap labor, and resources are extracted as corrupt cooperative states suppress any challenge to status quo, and life goes on. Those with money and power retain that money and power, and those impoverished and marginalized remain so. It seems to me that in order to halt the recruitment of pissed-off, disenfranchized Jihadists all over our world, that we may want to include and enrich them with their due, as all of us "own" the resources on this Earth, and all of us are entitled to a fair day's pay for productive labor. This ain't happening, so Jihadist's ranks are growing, as the rich get richer. And this reality is blamed on religion. How convenient for the capitalists. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Finally, some intelligent analysis and dialogue! I would disagree with the statements that Iranian people want to "drive Israel into the sea", as our ignorant or compromised media puppets repeatedly tell us. For an explanation on the controversy of what Ahmadinejad said: http://hrviolations.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/why-dont-more-people-know-the-truth-ahmadinejad-didnt-say-israel-must-be-wiped-off-the-map/ Some of what Ahmadinejad said at the UN Conference on Racism: "Mr Ahmadinejad, the only major leader to attend the conference, said Jewish migrants from Europe and the United States had been sent to the Middle East after World War II "in order to establish a racist government in the occupied Palestine". He continued, through an interpreter: "And in fact, in compensation for the dire consequences of racism in Europe, they helped bring to power the most cruel and repressive racist regime in Palestine." My comment: Can someone here argue that Israel wasn't set up as a racist (Jewish Homeland - where only Jews get benefit of full citizenship and equal rights) government on Palestinian's lands? And can anyone argue that Israel doesn't daily display cruelty and repression to Palestinians and other Arab peoples? French Ambassador Jean-Baptiste Mattei said: "As soon as he started to address the question of the Jewish people and Israel, we had no reason to stay in the room," the Associated Press news agency reported." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8008572.stm Just because National leaders politicize his statements doesn't make them untrue. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Also, Mr. Katz, Israel is not a democracy, as you may believe and as is constantly parroted by our biased and propagandized media and our politicans. Democracys allow equal rights and protection from discrimination to all citizens. Israel won't allow marriage between Jews and non-Jews. Israel won't allow building permits to Palestinians living in Israel. Israel restricts travel of it's Palestinian citizens on Jewish-only highways. For other reasons that clearly show that Israel is no democract: http://www.counterpunch.org/cook01252003.html The examples of Muslim extremism that you cite are atypical of the Muslim Faith, just as the extremes of Zionism are atypical of Judaism or the extremes of Christian fundamentalism are extremes of Christianity. Prejudice and bias against fundamentalists of any of these religions only strengthens their numbers, as it is difficult to reason with ones who feel beseiged. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Katz, I'll address some of your argument. You state: "Just because some people lived there doesn’t mean they had a country there. They didn’t start calling themselves “Palestinians” until 1967. Israel, on the other hand, was a real country, established by Jews for Jews, a thousand years before Islam’s creation." Fact: The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine “The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David’s conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule.” Illene Beatty, “Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan.” “Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined...Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE.” The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998. How long has Palestine been a specifically Arab country? “Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics — including its name in Arabic, Filastin — became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314.” Edward Said, “The Question of Palestine.” http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html#early 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Again, Mr. Katz, review this graph: http://www.themediaoasis.com/Hamasrockets.htm 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Katz, I've never heard of the site that you refer to. I haven't a clue what you are talking about, as my links all take you to stories and videos that are available all over the web from bonified news sites and reliable sources. Once aging, you try to discredit truths by denouncing sources instead of providing counter-evidence to deny what I've posted here. Nice try. The truth still stands. Your contention that my information is false is wrong. For example, you say: "The cite (sic) displays a graph which shows that Hamas fired 98 terror projectiles into Israel during December, just before Operation Cast Lead began. Maybe you’d sit back and tolerate someone trying to kill you and your family, but Israel has the right of self defense. Too bad Hamas decided not to extend the lull; they brought war upon their people." As I've pointed out numerous times already, and as the graph from IDF information, and statements from numerous Israeli spokspersons will confirm, Hamas held the conditions of the cease-fire until Israeli troops invaded Gaza on Nov. 4, 2008 and killed and captured Hamas leaders. ONLY AFTER THAT EVENT, did Hamas unleash rockets into Israel! If you will look at a calender you will find that November 4 (the day Israels stormed into Gaza, a clear violation of the cease-fire) comes before December, when the rockets were fired. Israel also kept the borders to Gaza choked all during the cease-fire, another violation of the agreement. Hamas is a governing body with members who work and live all over Gaza. Gaza is a crowded place, a walled-in area with no escape. Admiddedly, there were a few incidents where retaliatory rocket fire into Israel came from populated areas, and the UN report cited these events, but they were rare. Israel, on the other hand, fired 155mm white phosphorous into crowded neighborhoods, killing and burning many civilians. Israeli troops herded people into houses and called in arty on them. Israeli troops shot families who were waving white flags in open lots and fields, and Israel shot ambulance crews and bombed hospitals and food stores. These war crimes were also in the report. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 "Evans you are obviously a plant from another planet possibly Uranus please go back where you came from and leave the grown ups to talk amongst ourselves." Translation: "I have no meaningful comments to contribute to the dialogue, so...DUH." 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ....and collectively they ignore the evidence and the argument, cry prejudice and stick their heads firmly back in the sand. Incredible! 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Bitin Dawg's analogy: "If Gaza were a person: They are in solitary confinement in an Israeli jail. There is no bathroom facility. Their rations are bread and water in meager quantities. They are taken from their cell every day and tortured. They have no hope that their tormenter will ever release them. If they ever are released, they will be so damaged by the torture and the inhumane treatment that they have been subjected to that they will never be able to pick up and resume a normal life. That is Zionism.", breaks this conflict down to a personal level. If anyone here cannot relate to this allegory, then he is incapable of empathy, and thus, a sociopath. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Marilyn Shepherd, "In a nutshell" commentary! Right on! 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Ari H, I try to stay away from personal attack, Ari, but my God, you seem to be brain-damaged. Now go back and read thie thread and you will clearly see that facts based on evidence have repeatedly been presented that show that the Report condemning Israeli war crimes is valid. So the valuable point here, in keeping with the topic is: Israel committed war crimes, and the UN righteously reported those war crimes. Just because these facts don't fit you illusions about Israel doesn't make this thread "off issue". It's spot-on! Now, pick an allegation in the report that you contest, and we may debate it with evidence, facts and logic. Good luck. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I sincerely hope, Ms. Berney, that if your bid for Congress is successful you will investigate issues that come before you more thoroughly than you have investigated this very important issue. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Liz Berney, If your bid for Congress is serious and successful, here is what you can expect: The Best Congress AIPAC Can Buy by Philip Giraldi September 03, 2009 "Many Americans who thought that the health care debate was important must have wondered where their congressmen were in early August during the first two weeks of the House of Representatives recess. It turns out they were not hosting town hall meetings or listening to constituents because many of them were in Israel together with their spouses on a trip paid for by the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). Fully 13% of the entire US House of Representatives, 56 members, traveled to Israel in the largest AIPAC-sponsored fact-finding visit by American politicians ever conducted. And the leaders of the two congressional groups, 25 Republicans for a week starting on August 2nd followed by 31 Democrats beginning on August 13th, were drawn from the top ranks of their respective parties. House Minority whip Eric Cantor headed the Republican group and House Majority leader Steny Hoyer led the Democrats." For more on these brainwashing junkets: http://www.uruknet.info/?p=57578 On your return to the country that you are supposed to represent (the US) you may want to confer with Congressman Brian Baird or Congressman Keith Ellison or others who saw up close and personal the needless and purposeful death pf civilians and the destruction Israel rained on Gaza. You may ask them about the mothers whose children died in the slaughter, or died of their injuries because they were deprived of medical care by Israel who is still choking the borders. ask themabout the stench of raw sewage flowing in the streets because of the lack of generator fuel and pump parts and equipment and pipe to repair their damaged infrastructure, stuff that is withheld along with medical supplies and food at the borders. Speaking of borders, Google-Earth Gaza, Palestine and you will see fuzzy images (security reasons, I presume, but you can make out the wall and barbed wire that turns gaza into a huge prison. This belies the myth that Gaza was left to the Palestinians, as you assert. The rockets launched from Gaza that you mention were fired AFTER and in retaliation for the Nov. 4 Israeli raid into Gaza (a cease-fire agreement violation - one of many by Israel). Israel broke the cease fire, not Hamas. Israel attacked first before any of the rockets that you mention were fired: http://www.themediaoasis.com/Hamasrockets.htm 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Kerry Winn, What you posted is jibberish. Jordan and Syria, like Palestine were Mandate states, but Jordan and Syria, unlike Palestine, were granted autonomy. Palestine was denied autonomy, as it was singled out by Western powers (primarily Britain) to be the dumping ground for Jewish immigrants from all over the world. (Balfour Declaration of 1917. It is illegal under international law to (Fourth Geneva Convention) to remove people from their homes and steal their land. for legal explanation of this and other violations of international law: http://www.geocities.com/savepalestinenow/internationallaw/studyguides/sgil3.htm Your statement."Prior to 1967 there were no settlements, but still Israel was attacked." doesn't make sense, as prior to 1967, Israel turned more than 53% of Palestine into one huge Jewish settlement. IOsraeli population of Palestine increased from 7% in 1907 to 33% by 1947. dispite this huge increase by immigration Jews were still a minority population when the UN granted Zionists more than half of the land. Israel overran generous boundaries granted them, and has been expanding ever since. They now control virtually all of what was once 93% Palestinian land. This is whyIsrael was attacked prior to 1967. You're damned right that this is about justice, not religion! 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Perhaps you may want to post counter-argument instead of snide slanderous drivel, Mr. Lambert. Counter-argument based on evidenced-based facts and logic are how one wins argument. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Michael Hess, Thank you for forwarding the hateful and threatening comments. As a recipient of a personal email from our President, I assure you that Mr. Obama does actually read and respond to some emails from ordinary citizens. The war on Gaza and the ongoing settlement-building are issues that I have contacted the White House about. Unlike Ms. Mavrikos and others here who cowardly encourage more death and destruction from the comfort of their armchairs, our President is genuinely seeking peace and security for both Israelis and Palestinians. This issue is at the very heart of our primary national security concern. I'm sure that the wish by Ms. Mavrikos that harm may come to our President will be of interest to those charged with his security. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Also...the Israeli response also stated, "Even the thousands of rocket attacks against Israelis which necessitated the Gaza Operation are given the most cursory treatment, and indeed the Report indirectly blames Israel even for these by terming them “‘reprisals”. Reality check: There were no Hamas rockets fired from Gaza during the six-month cease-fire until Israeli troops invaded Gaza on Nov 4 and killed Hamas leaders. The pretext for launching Operation Cast Lead, "Israel is responding to hundreds of rockets fired fromn Gaza" was totally false: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6e-elrgYL0 http://www.themediaoasis.com/Hamasrockets.htm During the cease-fire, despite Israel keeping the Gaza borders closed, a violation of the cease-fire agreement, and despite other home invasions, arrests and killings of Palestinians by Israeli troops, and despite the shootings of Palestinian fishermen and farm workers, Hamas arrested anyone caught attempting to launch rockets. So it was Israel, not Hamas, that violated (repeatedly) the cease fire. By killing and arresting Hamas leaders on Nov 4, Israel was finally able to goad Palestinians into RESPONDING with rocket launches from Gaza. Then Israel attacket and killed more than a thousand innocent people, including children and were caught in scores of war crimes in an assault that was more than 2 years in the planning. The Israeli complaint that..."indeed the Report indirectly blames Israel even for these by terming them “‘reprisals”. has no validity as a complaint, as rockets from Gaza were indeed reprisals. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Haviv Retig Gur, I have read Israel's accusations and complaints of the Report. Following is an example of Israel's incredulous rebuttal: " While the Report passes judgment against Israel in respect of almost any allegation, it seeks to absolve the Hamas of almost any wrongdoing. The word “terrorist” is almost entirely absent. Soldier Gilad Shalit, now held incommunicado in captivity for over three years, was “captured during an enemy incursion” and the Hamas members that the Mission met with in Gaza are thanked as the “Gaza authorities” for extending their full cooperation and support to the Mission. • Even the thousands of rocket attacks against Israelis which necessitated the Gaza Operation are given the most cursory treatment, and indeed the Report indirectly blames Israel even for these by terming them “‘reprisals”. The charge that the word, "Terrorist" was seldom used in the report is nuts. Hamas is the ELECTED governing body of the people of Gaza. One does not address government officials, Israeli or Palestinians as terrorists in official documents such as the Report. The whining continues.... "Soldier Gilad Shalit, now held incommunicado in captivity for over three years, was “captured during an enemy incursion” and the Hamas members that the Mission met with in Gaza are thanked as the “Gaza authorities” for extending their full cooperation and support to the Mission." Shalit, unlike thousands of the 12,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons, is a POW. He was legitimately captured in a mil;itary operation. He was not, as the press keeps repeating, "kidnapped". Gaza, authorities, including members of Hamas, cooperated fully with the investigations (and BTW, some Hamas actions were also deemed war crimes (the firing of rockets at Israeli communities (where no one was killed in more than a year), just as the firing of weapons at civilians in Gaza (where more than 1000 Palestinian civilians were killed in 22 days). Israeli authorities refused to cooperate with investigators. Who had more to hide? This is just a small sample, but is indicative of the serious flaws in logic that the Israeli response exudes in their problem with a valid assessment of their actions in Gaza. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Bitin Dawg, Your comment, "The Christians, hell they don’t care, if Israel did it they figure that it is ordained by God." is right on, and is a big part of the problem. Many Christians are reluctant to challenge Zionist's false claim to other people's lands, as they deem such challenge as an affront to their God. Even while witnessing the murderous, atrocious behavior of Israel, as in the cases of Lebanon 2006 and Gaza this year, people choose to look the other way, or refuse to acknowledge the crimes they've just witnessed, as they are afraid; as how does one dare challenge "God's Chosen" and their right to drive people from "THEIR Promised Land"? To those here who are conflicted, I ask you to consider some of the works of Thomas Williamson: Excerpt: Many fundamentalist Christians have little knowledge of what the Old Testament teaches, and in many cases they have never even read it through once. When they say that "God gave Palestine to the Jews in an unconditional covenant," they are merely parroting the pronouncements of their favorite televangelist or prophecy guru. None of these teachers, or their followers, can point to anything in the Bible that says that God's covenant or land grant to the Jews were unconditional. With that in mind, let us see what thoughtful, intelligent, scholarly Jews have said about the nature of God's covenant and land grant. "We're not the Chosen People just by virtue of our forefathers; Leviticus warns the land will vomit us out, too, if we continue to be stiff-necked and evil. . . . There is no eternal guarantee to this holy land. . . . Our presence in the land is neither eternal nor automatic. Rather, our presence in the land is intimately connected with our moral behavior (our treatment of the stranger, widow and orphan) as a nation. If we act wickedly towards the stranger; turn our heads from the poverty of the orphan, and stuff our ears to the cries of the widow, then the land will vomit us out - just as it had done to so many nations before us. When life is not lived morally, there's no difference between Jews and Amorites, between Israelis and Canaanites, Romans or Crusaders." - Avraham Burg, former speaker of the Knesset (Israeli Parliament). "The text [Exodus 19:5] makes clear that this special status [Chosen People] is conditional: Israel must uphold their end of the deal and maintain the terms of the covenant. As the text states, 'IF you will obey Me faithfully and keep my covenant, THEN you shall be My treasured possession among all the peoples.' It is not Israel as a people who are special, but rather it is their behaviour, their commitment to and adherence to the laws of the covenant, which sets them apart from all other people." - Rabbi W. Gunther Plaut, in Kolel, The Adult Centre for Liberal Jewish Learning. For much more: http://www.thomaswilliamson.net/God's Land.htm 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Lambert, perhaps you should have directed that statement to others here, as I provide links to document what I say. Some others here don't. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 http://www.spinwatch.org/-articles-by-category-mainmenu-8/73-middle-east/5317-how-israel-torpedoed-its-ceasefire-with-hamas-to-produce-a-casus-belli http://www.themediaoasis.com/Hamasrockets.htm You here who side with the mass murdering leadership of Israel continue to adhere to ties, misinformation and myths. You have no valid evidence to challenge truths presented here, so you resort to the tried and true tactics of smearing the messenger with false accusations of anti-Semitism. This isn't 1955 any longer, and your parent's and grandparent's mythical world based on lies is crumbling. The fairness and objectivity of so many universal bodies that are continuing to report the crimes of Israel cannot be refuted with lies. In this case, Change is good. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Yosef, I read your article by Ms. Phillips, and it is just another platform of lies and misinformation. She declares that Israel was responding to rocket attacks when it initiated Cast Lead; That is a lie: How Israel torpedoed its ceasefire with Hamas to produce a casus belli by David Morrison, 8 September 2009 “Success is freeing the civilian population of southern Israel from the fear of an incoming Hamas rocket.” [1] http://www.spinwatch.org/-articles-by-category-mainmenu-8/73-middle-east/5317-how-israel-torpedoed-its-ceasefire-with-hamas-to-produce-a-casus-belli Those were the words of Israeli spokesman, Mark Regev, in an interview with David Fuller on More4 News on 9 January 2009, two weeks into Israel’s assault on Gaza. By 9 January, Israeli forces had killed nearly a thousand Palestinians, ostensibly to achieve this success, but rockets were still being fired out of Gaza into Israel by Hamas and other Palestinian groups – and continued to be fired after Israel halted the assault ten days later. In fact, Israel had achieved the success of “freeing the civilian population of southern Israel from the fear of an incoming Hamas rocket” months earlier. It did so, not by taking military action against Hamas, but by negotiating a ceasefire agreement with it in June 2008. Under the agreement, brokered by Egypt, in exchange for Hamas and other Palestinian groups stopping the firing of rockets and mortars out of Gaza, Israel undertook to lift its economic blockade of Gaza and cease military incursions into Gaza. The ceasefire was to be for six months initially, but, if successful, it was to be renewed and to apply to the West Bank as well. What is more, Hamas stuck rigidly to the ceasefire agreement, and fired no rockets or mortars out of Gaza into Israel from 19 June, when the ceasefire came into operation, until 4 November. Other Palestinian groups fired a small number, despite being restrained by Hamas. As a partner for peace, Hamas could not be faulted – it made a deal with Israel and stuck to it. Mark Regev confirmed the ceasefire’s “success” on More4 News on 9 January. When David Fuller put to him that “there were no Hamas rockets during the ceasefire before November the 4th, there were no Hamas rockets for 4 months”, Regev replied: “That’s correct”. So, how did the success of “freeing the civilian population of southern Israel from the fear of an incoming Hamas rocket” from June to November evaporate? Answer: on 4 November 2008, Israel took action that caused it to evaporate. Israel broke the terms of the ceasefire agreement by making a military incursion into Gaza and killing 7 members of Hamas. This was the first military incursion into Gaza since the ceasefire began on 19 June. Israel had now breached both of its obligations under the ceasefire agreement, having already failed to lift the economic blockade of Gaza as promised. In retaliation, Hamas resumed rocket and mortar fire out of Gaza into Israel." 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Those here who condemn the UN as being biased forget that it was the UN that gave Israel other people's land on which Zionists built their state. How biased was THAT act?... and biased against whom? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ...and the illegal use of other such weapons. Israel has done this repeatedly in it's 61 year history. It's no wonder that rockets get launched at Israeli communities: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/jan/23/gaza-aftermath-jabalya-refugees 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Douglas Lambert, does it look to you that these Israeli artillerymen reverence life, as they drop white phosphorous on innocent people? http://machinenation.forumakers.com/world-politics-and-events-f27/live-webcam-in-gaza-white-phosphorus-bombs-israel-declares-unilateral-ceasefire-troops-pull-out-t1828.htm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGy9YqEjD1o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVY4NUKowzg&feature=fvw ...The results of such illegal use of this weapon: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/jan/19/gaza-phosphorus-victim 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Hannah, You mistakenly believe that Palestinians want statehood in a land that doesn't already belong to them. All they want is for Israel to allow them the land that Israel stole since 1967. Even though non-Jew Palestinians owned most of what the UN granted Jews (the minority population) in 1947, in 1948, Jews overran the defined boundaries, and Israel has been taking evermore Arab land since: http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/landloss.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 blachheart, Once again I ask you to support you delusional accusasions with facts and evidence. Your tired rants are getting stale here. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I can only add this to these first two spot-on comments from Bitin Dawg and Ari H: The last sentence in the story, "Israel is committed to acting fully in accordance with international law and to examining any allegations of wrongdoing by its own forces." is just no true, as the following blatant violations of UN Resolutions clearly demonstrate Israel's historical unwillingness to comply with international laws: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/un.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Lambert, What is frivolous, insulting and petty about posting truth about the violent oppressive behavior of a government and military machine that is systematically killing people, destroying their homes and livelihoods and taking their lands? My comment that this gifted young pilot will not have to suffer the torment that comes to one of old age who has killed innocents is heartfelt, as I am one who lives that torment daily for actions I took as a US Marine occupier in Vietnam. Any disdain for unnecessary bloodshed of innocents that I've expressed here cannot be accurately be deemed venom by even the most rabid sociopathic Zionist here. Please provide evidence for your charges that I have ranted here or "spewed venom". A review of what I've written will show only thoughtful, calm presentation of documentable fact and logic. It seems that it is YOU, not I who is "spewing venom" at me. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For historical reality: The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine “The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David’s conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule.” Illene Beatty, “Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan.” http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html#early ....and for those here who value facts over myths: "Zionist nationalist myth of enforced exile An Israeli historian suggests the diaspora was the consequence, not of the expulsion of the Hebrews from Palestine, but of proselytising across north Africa, southern Europe and the Middle East. Schlomo Sand is professor of history at Tel Aviv university" http://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Palestinians had a thriving culture long before Zionists invaded and stole their lands from them: Check out pre-Israel photos of some of the more than 500 towns and villages that were overrun in 1948: Click on the heading, "Pictures". http://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/Ramallah_5196/Picture_11646.html http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Picture14128.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Hannah, Jews have historically been a minority population in what is now Israel: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html#early Check out some of the pre-Israel pictures of some of the 500 towns and villages that were overrun by Israeli forces in Palestine on this site, including this one: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Tiberias/Tiberias/Picture9106.html http://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/Ramallah_5196/Picture_11645.html http://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/Ramallah_527/Picture_10574.html http://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/Ramallah_5196/Picture_11646.html Palestinians had a thriving culture long before Zionists invaded their lands and stole it from them. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Israel already has total control of Gaza, as it is a giant Israeli prison where the inmates, including hundreds of thousands of children are being purposefully starved, bombed and denied human rights: http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/f45643a78fcba719852560f6005987ad/d11a4b71da415d52852575740060c8d2?OpenDocument Israel neve left Gaza. The troops just withdrew to the walls and the guard towers. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ...The difference being that guards in maximum security prisons don't shoot innocent people, including children: http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/israel_s_other_war.html http://ingaza.wordpress.com/2009/09/11/israel-still-targeting-fishermen-farmers-in-gaza/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFUsSpcZjW0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmag8ktHvhs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPKLRy4lq2w&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-Gg0PXBumM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAUzugKX1AE&NR=1 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Yoseph, I checked out your link. It seems that it is you, not Klein, who live in the alternate universe. Cast Lead wasn't launched over rockets: http://www.themediaoasis.com/Hamasrockets.htm http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11680 Muchof israel is indeed contested ground, as Israel overran the borders allotted it by the UN in 1948, and israel is still demolishing Palestinian homes to make room for ever more imported "pretend Jews" who get subsidized housing built on Palestinian lands: http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/11965/immigration-of-non-jews-to-israel-increasing/ ...and your claim that Israel evacuated Gaza is bogus, as what happened in 2005 was tantamount to guards in a maximum-security prison leaving the yard and setting up more weapons on the walls and in the guard towers. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” .....David Ben-Gurion quote If Ben Gurion were alive today, he would have added, "...so we'll just continue stealing their lands." 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Edwards, Once again you bring no counter-argument to the discussion, only wild accusations and slanderous lies. You appear here as a frustrated baboon on a hilltop, jumping up and down and throwing sticks. All that I have posted here is truth. It may disturb you to read it, but it is truth. As I've said repeatedly, I am no anti-Semite. I cannot condone what Israel has done to millions of innocent people. Those are two distinctly separate sentences. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 It will take more than mythical pronouncements and historical inaccuracies to correct me, Mr.gamliel. Perhaps a study of the facts will set you straight: “Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined...Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE.” The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998. How long has Palestine been a specifically Arab country? “Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics — including its name in Arabic, Filastin — became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314.” Edward Said, “The Question of Palestine.” I call Palestinian people what they have been called for centuries. David Ben Gurion recognized Palestine and Palestinians: "In an article published by Ben-Gurion in 1918, titled "The Rights of the Jews and others in Palestine," he conceded that the Palestinian Arabs have the same rights as Jews. He explained that Palestinians had these rights since they had inhabited the land "for hundreds of years". He stated in the article: "Palestine is not an empty country . . . on no account must we injure the rights of the inhabitants." Ben-Gurion often returned to this point, emphasizing that Palestinian Arabs had "the full right" to an independent economic, cultural, and communal life, but not political. (Shabtai Teveth, p. 37-38) This comment by you, Mr. gamliel, is a bit disturbing: ' there are innocent arabs in the world until they are tainted and corrupted by those who demonize jews, christians, and westerners." Would you care to explain what you meant to say that turned out all mixed up? You see, Palestinians lived in harmony for centuries with Jews, Christians, Druse and others. It wasn't until the arrogant Zionists began flooding into the land in great numbers that there was a problem. With the fall of the Ottoman Empire, western nations imposed their will on the inhabitants and set the course for evermore immigration and displacement of Palestinians by Jews. This led to righteous resentment and conflict. In 1948, nearly 800,000 Palestinians were driven from their lands. If this had happened to your people, I dare say that you would resent those who displaced your people also. I know that I would. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Yes, David Ehrens, a collective conscience and collective embarrassment and disinterest in Israel, as recent polling of younger Jewish people reveals: "The historic bargain linking American Jewry and Israel since the founding of the State is coming to an end. The implications of Cohen and Kelman's findings for American Jewry are great. The historic bargain linking American Jewry and Israel since the founding of the State is coming to an end. The terms of the deal were unspoken, but clear: Israel would provide American Jews with a sense of pride and identity as Jews, and they, in turn, would shower upon Israel their financial and political support. But Israel is no longer a source of pride for many Jews, and the identity it provides is not one which they wish to share." http://www.aish.com/print/?contentID=48918377§ion;=/jw/s 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Matthew, Very few of these missles hit anything more than an empty field. But the question that should be asked, is WHY are these missles being fired? Why do Palestinioans throw stones at Israeli tanks? Few here bother to back up to the elemental cause of the violence. Israel is occupying the land and the neighborhoods of Palestinians. Israel is the provocateur. Palestinians are RESPONDING to Israeli violence and provocations by resisting and RETALIATING to the occupation. If you were a parent of one of these victims, wouldn't you consider retaliating against the aggressors? http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/israel_s_other_war.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Truth is often hard to reconcile with myths, Alfred...Try disputing with facts and logic based on evidence instead of dumb-ass snide remarks. Here is a fact, and one of the primary reasons I bother posting here: “Since 2000, 763 Palestinian children have been killed and over 20,000 injured, with at least 2,000 maimed for life. At least a third of those killed were shot by Israeli sharpshooters, and 50% received single gunshots to the head or upper torso. The group �Physicians for Human Rights� studied the death toll of kids killed by those types of shots and concluded that Israeli snipers deliberately aimed for the head. So far this year 59 Palestinian children have been killed and many more wounded. At the same time Israelis have kidnapped 342 Palestinian juveniles and are holding them in jails throughout Israel. Some of those are targeted for Israeli intelligence and brainwashing programs aimed at turning them into spies on their release. Despite the exceptionally high death toll of children in the Occupied Territories, no Israeli sniper or regular soldier has been found guilty of killing a child. That is even more shocking when one realizes that many children were shot on their way to school or while playing games. One of the first to be killed was a 6-year-old, who was shot in the back as he stepped away from a window in his home. That was in 2000 when a young Israeli sniper gave a revealing interview to well-known Jewish reporter Amira Hass of the daily newspaper Haaretz. The sniper described the high level of skill of IDF marksmen and claimed they could deliver headshots at 200 yards. More importantly, he admitted that the IDF told its marksmen they could shoot Palestinian kids of 12 and over. Horrifying incidents include a 13-year-old boy, who was shot in the back in Ramallah on Jan. 23, 2006. Three days later, a 9-year-old boy was shot several times and died in the Gaza Strip. And, on Feb. 15, a mentally-challenged 15-yearold carrying a toy gun was shot several times through the chest. No soldier was charged with those murders.” http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/israel_s_other_war.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For more of the text from the above quoted article: http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/israel_s_other_war.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Melvin, you seem reluctant to assimilate new information to you in a context that may make your limited world view a bit more realistic. For example, my charge that Israel forces routinely target and kill Palestinian children is based on fact and evidence: "Since 2000, 763 Palestinian children have been killed and over 20,000 injured, with at least 2,000 maimed for life. At least a third of those killed were shot by Israeli sharpshooters, and 50% received single gunshots to the head or upper torso. The group �Physicians for Human Rights� studied the death toll of kids killed by those types of shots and concluded that Israeli snipers deliberately aimed for the head. So far this year 59 Palestinian children have been killed and many more wounded. At the same time Israelis have kidnapped 342 Palestinian juveniles and are holding them in jails throughout Israel. Some of those are targeted for Israeli intelligence and brainwashing programs aimed at turning them into spies on their release. Despite the exceptionally high death toll of children in the Occupied Territories, no Israeli sniper or regular soldier has been found guilty of killing a child. That is even more shocking when one realizes that many children were shot on their way to school or while playing games. One of the first to be killed was a 6-year-old, who was shot in the back as he stepped away from a window in his home. That was in 2000 when a young Israeli sniper gave a revealing interview to well-known Jewish reporter Amira Hass of the daily newspaper Haaretz. The sniper described the high level of skill of IDF marksmen and claimed they could deliver headshots at 200 yards. More importantly, he admitted that the IDF told its marksmen they could shoot Palestinian kids of 12 and over. Horrifying incidents include a 13-year-old boy, who was shot in the back in Ramallah on Jan. 23, 2006. Three days later, a 9-year-old boy was shot several times and died in the Gaza Strip. And, on Feb. 15, a mentally-challenged 15-yearold carrying a toy gun was shot several times through the chest. No soldier was charged with those murders." You, Melvin, may not want to hear this and other facts, but never the less, the facts remain. Instead of continuing with the tired old false accusations against me and others who bring truth to this forum, try winning any argument you may have by posting counter-argument and your own verifyable facts. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Good luck!!! If Israel continues this belligerant behavior, peace has no chance.....But that's been Israel's goal all along, hasn't it? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8241247.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8236733.stm 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Why AIPAC is bad for US and Israel's national interests: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSAqNuf55k0&feature=related This video was post- Lebanon, pre-Cast Lead, but the conclusion which can be drawn from this assessment is ditto for the unprovoked attack on Gaza. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Instead of demonizing the messenger, why doesn't someone here show that his message is false? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ..and for the reading-comprehension challenged here, check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXkb7Xm2SJs&feature=related 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 No, MIM, Bitin Dawg has it right. Here's how it works: http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn0821.html http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion editorials/2006 Opinion Editorials/May/22 o/How AIPAC Controls US Congress US Representative Betty McCollum Reacts to the Intimidation Tactics of of the Israel Lobby.htm These are just two examples....but you get the picture.... 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 It is always sad to see that another bright young person has left our planet. Perhaps this youthful pilot was blessed, as he will never need to contemplate or be haunted by any participation he would doubtlessly have had in the future killing or maiming of innocent men, women and children in a raid on Palestinian innocents. May God bless him and those who loved him. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Interesting post, Esther Haman...The evangelical Christians definitely are having their way with Zionists in their rush to armegeddon. A symbiotic relationship. They deserve each other. I recommend this quick read to anyone who truly wants what is best for Israel: http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/2009110112723260741.html Then read this: http://www.harpers.org/archive/2005/01/0080361 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Will Edwards, perhaps you should be concerned about Jerusalem's policy of importing thousands of "pretend Jews" into Israel to fill up the land that is being stolen as Palestinians are losing their homes to bulldozers: JERUSALEM -- More than half of last year's immigrants from the former Soviet Union were non-Jews, Minister of Jewish Affairs Michael Melchior said on Wednesday of last week. He called the trend "a ticking time bomb." Speaking at the first meeting of the Ministerial Committee on Conversion, Melchior said that in previous years, only 25 percent of the immigrants were not Jewish. The increase, he said, poses not just a religious problem, but a social and national problem. Melchior said that more than half of the 65,000 people who immigrated from the former Soviet Union last year were not Jewish. Mike Rosenberg, director of the Jewish Agency's immigration and absorption department, said he did not have last year's figures, but confirmed that the number of those who were not halachicly Jewish among the immigrants from the former Soviet Union has been growing every year. In 1989, he said, there were 94 percent Jews and 6 percent non-Jews. By 1997, the last year for which the Agency had statistics, the percentage of Jews to non-Jews was 59 percent to 41 percent. Rosenberg stressed that the policy of the Jewish Agency is to bring whoever is eligible under the "law of return," which is determined by the Israeli consular offices. However, he added that having brought the immigrants, the Jewish Agency and the state of Israel have a responsibility to be very active in strengthening the immigrants' Jewish identity." ...."Jewish identity is very lacking both among the Jewish and the non-Jewish immigrants. It is a problem for all the immigrants from the former Soviet Union," Rosenberg said." http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/11965/immigration-of-non-jews-to-israel-increasing/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Why should the Palestinian authorities recognize a racist state that excludes them from their own land? If Mexicans had been asked in 1849 to publically recognize that the US had a right to exist on Mexican land, the answer would likely have been the same as is now given by Palestinians. Besides, Israel still denies, despite historical recognition of Palestine as the home of Palestinians, that there is such a place. The names of towns and villages, formerly Palestinian names on world maps, are now Israel names. Israel denies recognition of Palestine, so it is ludicrous and unfair for one to demand that Palestinians to recognize Israel. Your charge that the majority of US citizens see this issue otherwise merely indicates the effectiveness of Israeli propaganda in our country. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I consistantly read reasonable argument from tha anti-Zionists here, juxtaposed with the venemous, uber-religious fanaticism and raving false charges of anti-Semitism from those who champion the atrocious behavior of Israel. If I were just looking in on this site, it wouldn't be too difficult to chose which side is right. Contrary to your unbalanced wishes, blackie, this site should, and does provide a forum for truth. And contrary to the teachings of the Great Books of Judaism, you spew hatred and lies here. Then you attack the bearers of truth: Paul of Taursus voiced similar concerns to mine in his epistle to the Galatians: "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?" Galatians 4:16 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I'm glad that the topic of people dancing in celebration of the events of 9/11 is brought up. Here is a contribution to that topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw Mr. Katz, the massive embedding of Hamas among civilians, as you charge just doesn't fit the facts. Gaza is a crowded place that is a walled-in prison. Check out this video of indiscriminate widespread shelling of civilian areas: http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=4180 Also, it is a lie, that Operation Cast Lead was launched in response to rocket attacks by Hamas: http://www.themediaoasis.com/Hamasrockets.htm 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 "There was a day when we did live in peace with our Palestinian brothers, but that was centuries ago " No, Will Edwards, this is simply not true. It was merely decades ago. Until Jews began to immigrate from all over the world with a notion to claim the already-populated lands of others as their's alone, there was peace and community among all groups living in Palestine. For an audio history of the conflict: http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Regarding many of the myths perpetuated about the righteous of Israel, and the righteousness of the US, “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.” Samuel Clements 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 "Business is Business The "bank," founded in 1924 by W. Averell Harriman on behalf of Thyssen and his Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V. of Holland, was Union Banking Corporation (UBC) of New York City. According to government documents, it was in reality a clearing house for a number of Thyssen-controlled enterprises and assets, including as many as a dozen individual businesses. UBC also bought and shipped overseas gold, steel, coal, and U.S. Treasury bonds. The company's activities were administered for Thyssen by a Netherlands-born, naturalized U.S. citizen named Cornelis Lievense, who served as president of UBC. Roland Harriman was chairman and Prescott Bush a managing director. - The Herald-Tribune article did not identify Bush or Harriman as executives of UBC, or Brown Brothers Harriman, in which they were partners, as UBC's private banker. A confidential FBI memo from that period suggested, without naming the Bush and Harriman families, that politically prominent individuals were about to come under official U.S. government scrutiny as Hitler's plunder of Europe continued unabated. - After the "Hitler's Angel" article was published Bush and Harriman made no attempts to divest themselves of the controversial Thyssen financial alliance, nor did they challenge the newspaper report that UBC was, in fact, a de facto Nazi front organization in the U.S. - Instead, the government documents show, Bush and his partners increased their subterfuge to try to conceal the true nature and ownership of their various businesses, particularly after the U.S. entered the war. The documents also disclose that Cornelis Lievense, Thyssen's personal appointee to oversee U.S. matters for his Rotterdam-based Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V., via UBC for nearly two decades, repeatedly denied to U.S. government investigators any knowledge of the ownership of the Netherlands bank or the role of Thyssen in it. Brown Brothers Harriman sent letters to the government seeking reconsideration of the seizures by using false information. - UBC's original group of business associates included George Herbert Walker, President Bush's maternal great-grandfather, who had a relationship with the Harriman family that began in 1919. In 1922, Walker and W. Averell Harriman traveled to Berlin to set up the German branch of their banking and investment operations, which were largely based on critical war resources such as steel and coal. - The Walker-Harriman-created German industrial alliance also included partnership with another German titan who supported Hitler's rise, Friedrich Flick, who partnered with Thyssen in the German Steel Trust that forged the Nazi war machine. For his role in using slave labor and his own steel, coal and arms resources to build Hitler's war effort, Flick was convicted at the Nuremberg trials and sentenced to prison. " 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ...and as to your cry, "Where were such courts when the Arab nations gave comfort and protection to Nazi killers after WW2?" I would also add "Where were the courts when the US gave such protection to Nazis?: Where were such courts when the Arab nations gave comfort and protection to Nazi killers BEFORE, DURING and after WW2? "Hitler's Angel Has $3 Million in U.S. Bank," declared the front-page Herald-Tribune headline. The lead paragraph characterized Fritz Thyssen as "Adolf Hitler's original patron a decade ago." In fact, the steel and coal magnate had aggressively supported and funded Hitler since October 1923, according to Thyssen's autobiography, I Paid Hitler. In that book, Thyssen also acknowledges his direct personal relationships with Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels and Rudolf Hess." http://aradicalblackfoot.blogspot.com/2006/12/all-kinds-of-holocaust-denial-going.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Genocides, as you point out, Mr. Marquis, happen all over the planet. But no genocide gives a People a right to steal other people's lands. Check out where the international bodies that granted Israel a State drew the intended boundaries in 1947: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan Now, see where Israel is still displacing people and expanding today: http://attendingtheworld.wordpress.com/2008/06/11/one-more-time-zionism-came-to-terrorize/ In a nutshell, Mr. Marquis, Jews, the minority population of Palestine, were given the majority of other peoples land to create their State. But Jewis leaders immediately overran the boundaries, stole much more land than was granted them, and they are still dispossessing and stealing ever more land from Palestinians. The remaining Palestinians are resisting this injustice. While you seem bent on throwing extraneous diversion such as other genocides into the conversation, here's one I'd like to add: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3319663041501647311# 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Perhaps it is time that Israel begin adhering to international law. The proposal to re-assemble the UN and limit veto power would be welcomed by much of the World. Bullies are generally unpopular. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 From the Jan. 2008 UN General Assembly: "Noting that the International Court of Justice concluded that “the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (including East Jerusalem) have been established in breach of international law”,5" http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/3822b5e39951876a85256b6e0058a478/1dfd2618120dcaa1852573d80065afe7?OpenDocument See the connection, Mr. Marquis? A clue: The thread is about destruction of Palestinian homes to make way for Jewish settlement-enhancement. http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/3822b5e39951876a85256b6e0058a478/1dfd2618120dcaa1852573d80065afe7?OpenDocument 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 It would seem that it is you who is the fool, Mr. Marquis, if you fail to see the connection between international law, UN resolution violations by Israel regarding demolitions and unfair housing practices which Israel is using to justify illegal demolitions. I suggest that you learn about cognitive dissonance, as this may be your problem. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Stony, Pay respects, as I do, then read War Is A Racket by Marine Major General Smedley Butler: http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot Nothing has changed. Ask yourself why our buildings were knocked down. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ..yet Israel continues to violate international standards and laws with impunity. For a look at how unjust Israel's building permit policies are, see chart: http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=1947 "International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (1965) Article 5 provides that 'States' Parties undertake to prohibit and eliminate racial discrimination in all of its forms and to guarantee the right of everyone, without distinction as to race, color, or national or ethnic origin, to equality before the law, notably in the enjoyment of the following rights: ... (e) in particular ... (III) the right to housing'.” 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Israeli court decisions regarding housing matters in Jerusalem have been ruled invalid by international bodies: "United Nations Security Council Resolution 298 adopted on September 25, 1971, after recalling previous resolutions on the topic …..'The Council deplored Israel's failure to respect the previous resolutions concerning measures and actions by Israel to affect the status of Jerusalem. The Council confirmed that all legislative and administrative actions taken by Israel to change the status of Jerusalem aimed at the incorporation of the occupied section are totally invalid and cannot change that status. The Council called on Israel to rescind all previous measures and to take no further steps in attempting to change the status of the city and requested the Secretary-General report to the Council in 60 days on the implementation of the resolution”. http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=1947 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Yeah, Cheryl, Israel is a good teacher of media manipulation and lying: http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi/noframes/read/91303 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 These inaccurate rockets seldom hit structures, let alone kill anyone. On the other hand, Israeli attacks on civilians have killed thousands. The attack on Lebanon in 2006 documents some of the lies by Israel regarding precision targeting of civilians with modern weapons: "There are four very conspicuous and dangerous bold-faced Zionist (Israeli) lies about the ongoing Israeli-American genocidal campaign being waged in Lebanon and the occupied Palestinian territories. Because these lies are repeated without question by the Zionist-controlled mainstream media in the United States, it is urgent to point out the falseness of these first four Zionist lies which are blindly accepted as truth by many Americans. BOLD-FACED ISRAELI LIE No. 1: Hezbollah had fired missiles from the location where 60 Lebanese civilians were massacred as they slept in a basement where they had sought shelter in Cana of Galilee (Qana, Lebanon). The Plain Truth: "There were no rocket launches from Qana on the day of the strike," Ha'aretz (Israel) reported today: "As the Israel Air Force continues to investigate the air strike, questions have been raised over military accounts of the incident. "It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time. "The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday. "The site was included in an IAF plan to strike at several buildings in proximity to a previous launching site. Similar strikes were carried out in the past. However, there were no rocket launches from Qana on the day of the strike." Source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html BOLD-FACED ISRAELI LIE No. 2: "We want it to be clear it was not a deliberate attack because Israel would never target a UN force. It is not part of our policies; it is not part of our values." - Israel's Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, The Plain Truth: Livni's statement is a nothing but an Israeli bold-faced lie. Israel has often targeted UN bases, apart from the recent massacre the most egregious Israeli atrocity committed against a UN base occurred on April 18, 1996, during the Israeli "Grapes of Wrath" aggression against Lebanon, when prime minister Shimon Peres (now vice premier) ordered the precision-guided artillery shelling of the FIJIBATT UN base at Qana (Cana) in which hundreds of Lebanese had sought shelter. More than 106 Lebanese civilians, most of them children, were killed in this deliberate attack on a UN base. From Robert Fisk's April 19, 1996 article "Massacre in Sanctuary" in The Independent (UK): Qana, southern Lebanon - It was a massacre. Not since Sabra and Chatila had I seen the innocent slaughtered like this. The Lebanese refugee women and children and men lay in heaps, their hands or arms or legs missing, beheaded or disemboweled. There were well over a hundred of them. A baby lay without a head. The Israeli shells had scythed through them as they lay in the United Nations shelter, believing that they were safe under the world's protection. Like the Muslims of Srebrenica, the Muslims of Qana were wrong. In front of a burning building of the UN's Fijian battalion headquarters, a girl held a corpse in her arms, the body of a grey- haired man whose eyes were staring at her, and she rocked the corpse back and forth in her arms, keening and weeping and crying the same words over and over: "My father, my father." A Fijian UN soldier stood amid a sea of bodies and, without saying a word, held aloft the body of a headless child." For more of the lies of Israel: http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi/noframes/read/91303 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Will Edwards, Think about what you've just posted: "The only distinction I make about human beings is against those wishing to do my people or my family harm. To them I am willing to wage unending war until they are completely forgotten as a people. " That statement could have well been made by the most radical of Palestinian freedom fighters. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Cheryl, It's difficult to develop technology when your infrastructure is regulary blown to bits, dug up and bulldozed by an oppressive occupying power. Clean drinking water is scarce in Palestine. What kind of technological base can be built on rubble and blood? For a look at some of the scientific accomplishments of the great minds of Arabs: http://score.rims.k12.ca.us/activity/rosen_islamic_science/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 And for an article on Palestinian infant mortality and who is responsible for this planned, targeted killing: "Thus EACH YEAR nearly as many Occupied Palestinian under-5 year old infants die AVOIDABLY as have Israeli victims of "terrorism" over the LAST SIXTY (60) YEARS. Further, we can estimate that so far in the first 7 years of this century the total AVOIDABLE Occupied Palestinian under-5 infant deaths total about 17,000, over 6 times the number of Israelis killed by "terrorism" over the last 60 years. And, of course, one notes that "avoidable under-5 infant deaths" is just one component (albeit a major component) of the "total avoidable deaths". http://www.worldproutassembly.org/archives/2007/03/palestinian_gen.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Calling this ongoing massacre of innocent people a "conflict" appears to give one-sided mass killing some sense of legitimacy, when in fact it's not a conflict at all. 1400 Palestinians died in 22 days, and scores more have died of their injuries. 13 Israelis died. This is the typical kill ratio, as the 4th most powerful military power on the planet oppresses a lightly armed resistance force: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 More on massacres in Gaza: B'Tselem said the group's researchers visited homes and collected photos, death certificates and other documents relating to all those deaths. In all, 320 Gazans under 18, all of them noncombatants, were among the dead, B'Tselem said. In addition, 19 minors were counted as combatants. Michaeli said B'Tselem could only dispatch two Gaza field workers since the military prevented outsiders, including Arabic-speaking researchers from Israel, from entering the territory. In addition to its report, B'Tselem has sent details of about 20 cases with alleged violations of the law to Israel's military prosecutor. Suspicions include firing on civilians or using them as human shields, B'Tselem said. B'Tselem noted that the military withheld details that would have enabled the group to cross-check information. The discrepancy between the army's figures and those of B'Tselem is "particularly blatant concerning minors," the group said. and..."Israeli soldiers killed unarmed civilians carrying white flags in Gaza, says report. Human Rights Watch says Israel has failed to properly investigate 'white flag' killings during Gaza offensive......" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/13/israeli-soldiers-gaza-deaths-allegations 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ...another massacre incident: UN warns Israel over Gaza family 'herded' into shelled house http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5485150.ece 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Gary Katz, SLAUGHTER: a. To kill (people) in large numbers; massacre. b. To kill in a violent or brutal manner. JERUSALEM – Well over half of nearly 1,400 Palestinians killed in Israel's Gaza war were civilians, including 252 children younger than 16, a leading Israeli human rights groups said Wednesday, challenging Israel's claim that most of the dead were militants. Determining the number of civilian casualties is seen as key in the ongoing debate over whether Israel, along with Hamas, violated the rules of war in its three-week offensive against Gaza's Hamas rulers last winter. International human rights groups have said they suspect both sides committed war crimes — Israel by using disproportionate force in crowded Gaza, and Hamas by hiding behind civilians and indiscriminately firing rockets at Israeli towns. The Israeli rights group B'Tselem on Wednesday published figures it said were compiled in months of research, including visits to families of victims. It said 1,387 Gazans were killed, including 773 civilians and 330 combatants. Thirteen Israelis also died, including four civilians. The high number of Palestinian civilian deaths should compel the Israeli government to launch an independent investigation, the group said, adding that it considers the army's internal probe as flawed. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090909/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_gaza_war I'd call that a slaughter. UN envoy: Israel turned Gaza into prison Special UN envoy on human rights in PA says in special report Israel's actions in territories can be described as 'ethnic cleansing,' adds three-quarters of Gaza population depend on food aid for survival Ali Waked and Reuters Published: 09.26.06, 19:28 / Israel News Uited Nations Human rights envoy to the Palestinian territories John Dugard has published a report Tuesday where he does not shy away from sharply criticizing Israel and the West for the situation in Gaza. "Israel has turned the Gaza Strip into a prison for Palestinians and have thrown away the key," he said, adding that "in other countries this process might be described as ethnic cleansing." http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3308494,00.html I'd also call Gaza a prison. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For a look at the work of Jeff Halper's ICAHD (Israeli Citizen's against House Demolitions): http://www.icahd.org/eng/video.asp?menu=video&submenu=video 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Check out the behavior of these brave Israeli soldiers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSghWcrD1FA http://vodpod.com/watch/862351-break-the-bones-strategy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgRdDpiry2A&feature=related 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2drVlyjv4A&NR=1 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 "....,except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations.” The destruction of these and many other homes is NOT absolutely necessary by military operations. That clause was written for the obvious reason that during war operations, such destruction may be necessary to kill armed enemy forces. The people in these homes are civilians who have lived here with their families, sometimes for decades. Put all of the nonsense and spin on it if you will, but destruction of these homes is clearly a violation of international law. But what should destroying homes mean to Zionists. They routinely murder children. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 You're welcome, Thoroughly Disgusted. Those of us who aren't locked into 60 year old myths and false self-righteousness based purely on victimhood seek and find truths that such people are blind to. What they think is good for Israel hasn't brought the peace nor the security that was envisioned by the staunchest Zionists and the people who championed a homeland for the good Jewish People, as Israeli leaders have grossly abused their right to the land by abusing the new neighborhood they moved into: "The idea of a Jewish national home in Palestine received its first international support within the 1922 text of the creation of the British mandate of Palestine by the League of nations. In it, The Mandatory (...) will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.[4]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel,_Palestine,_and_the_United_Nations Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were driven from their homes or fled because of massacres by Jewish immigrants before one neighboring Arab State came, disorganized and under-equipped, to their aid. And Israel has been abusing and attacking Palestinians and Lebanese people ever since. This is the truth. All violence in the region is subsequent to the initial and ongoing aggression of Israel, and until Israel changes its behavior, the promise of a peaceful homeland, with Jews living side by side with Arabs, as they had for centuries, cannot be fulfilled. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I doubt that anyone here is anti-Semite or wants to see Israel destroyed. I suggest that instead of wasting time posting ignorant rants, blackie and Gena, that you read: Saving Israel from itself: A secular future for the Jewish state By Bernard Avishai http://www.harpers.org/archive/2005/01/0080361 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mussa Aliwat, People will have respect for Israel when Israel quits killing and punishing and dispossessing innocent people. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 "A recent poll revealed that 40% of Palestinians believe that the Holocaust never happened. This is what happens when you deny people an honest education and repeat a lie over and over." Similar to the lie, "Land without people for a people with no land". Many of us believe that lie. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Also...Mr. Shuster...Has it occurred to you that maybe those you call stupid just don't like bullies? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Perhaps this is why the World sees Israel as such an outlaw State. Perhaps this is why there were some cancelled jets. It has NOTHING to do with anti-Semitism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9mkRiGbgZg So far as I can determine, the "Arab Responde" is one of "wait and see". 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Yes, David Hicks, Much of the world knows bad behavior when they see it, and they respond accordingly. But much of the world, unlike here in the US, has unfiltered media: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/videos.html ........see Documentary Trailer Also see: Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565# 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Shifting the focus from Israel's abuses to those of Saudi Arabia, as Yosef Hartuv's link has done is an attempt at distraction. While Saudi Arabia has an abysmal HR record, Saudis are not using their military to kill innocent people and steal their land as Israel is. Saudis haven't violated more than 100 UN resolutions, as Israel has. And Saudi's aren't starving and murdering people that they've caged in a walled prison, as Israel is. Israel is guilty of multiple war crimes in Lebanon and Gaza, separate countries. Saudi Arabia has internal problems. There is a big difference. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 This is illegal use of drones, Cheryl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jafTFCsLnso 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 The One State Solution isn't a new nor novel idea. This, from a 6 year old article: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20031103/lazare 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Kerry Winn, You are spouting nonsense and myths. The land that became Israel was thriving and teeming with modern towns before the arrival of Jews in large numbers. Check out some of the pre-Nakba photos on this site: http://www.palestineremembered.com/OldNewPictures.html Tiny Israel was all too happy "absorbing" any people who could breathe and claim they were Jewish, as the intent was to fill up the new state (which overran the boundaries allotted to it in 1948) with as many non-Arab Palestinians as possible. That process is still ongoing as the Wall is encroaching into Palestinian lands, and people are still being thrown out of their homes to make way for more Jewish immigrants. Very little land was purchased legally. Most of what became Israel was stolen. http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/landloss.html In 1945, on the 26.4 million dunams of land in Palestine, 12.8 million was owned by Arabs, 1.5 million by Jews, 1.5 million was public and 10.6 millions constituted the desertic Beersheba district (Negev). In terms of arable land, 7.8 million was owned by Arabs, 1.2 million by Jews and 0.2 million by public.[1][2] By 1949, some 700,000 Palestinians had fled or been expelled from their lands and villages. Israel was now in control of some 20.5 million dunams (approx. 20 500 km²) of lands in what had been Mandate Palestine : 8 percent (approx. 1,650 km²) were privately controlled by Jews, 6% (approx. 1,300 km²) by Arabs, with the remaining 86 percent under the control of the government.[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_and_Property_Laws_in_Israel All of what you say in your post is false. It may be what you believe to be true, but, like most of the myths of Israel, it is false. For some of the other myths that many of us believe to be true: http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=9407 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Rob Brownstein, Your comment here implies that Israel was createn in a near "empty land", the myth that zionists use to justify the building of a Jewish State. This lie is patently false, as hundreds of thousands of "others" lived on the land that Israel now occupies. Even just before 1948, after decades of immigration of Jewish people into Palestine (You are correct that Jews and others of this land were referred to as Palestinians), Jews accounted for less than 1/3 of the population of what became Israel. Jews have ALWAYS been a minority population in the "Holy Lands". So what right do Zionists have in forcing the majority of people out of their way to build the State of Israel? This practice is ongoing today, as accellerated settlement-building in East Jerusalem and other parts of the West Bank continues. The reason for any anti-Semitism in the Middle East, indeed around the World, is because of Israel's aggressive expansion and nation-building at the expense of other indigenous people. Immigration and expansion preceeded anti-Semitism, as Jews, Muslims, Christians and others lived in harmony for centuries before Zionists upset the tranquility between the various groups of Palestine. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For something to consider, I suggest this short read: http://www.harpers.org/archive/2005/01/0080361 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 blackie, You seem to be reading-challenged. Perhaps a remedial reading class would help you. I have NEVER posted ANYTHING anti-Semite here or anywhere else, nor have I ever spoken negatively of the good Jewish People! I have only spoken and posted truths about the STATE of Israel, a secular state that kills innocent people for their land. If in your mind, you think otherwise, you are one sick, demented hateful puppy, pal. Your venemous, slanderous lies here are just as bad as Nazi lies against Jewish people were. Find just ONE thing that I have posted here that would indicate that I hated Jews. You won't, because I've never posted such crap. You just stupidly read falsehoods into anything that challenges Israel's misdeeds and inhumane behavior. You are a chump of the Zionists who brainwashed you and other dumb asses into behaving and thinking illogically so that challenge to Israel will be met with vitriol, and the timid won't dare speak up against unjust Israeli policies. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I know little of Judaic studies as this rich enlightenment is a lifelong commitment, and I have approached the subject as an outsider in my quest for spiritual understanding. All religions hold my interest, as much human interaction and behavior is predicated cultural and religious beliefs. What is written here exemplifies the good and the just and the connectedness with God that that I experienced as a child through my Jewish friends and their loving family. My memories of the richness of their dedicated Jewish life had great impact on me; the strength and dedication of the father, the loving kindness and protection and caring their mother provided, and the adherence to Jewish tradition and ceremony guided me, a peripherial player, in my journey to adulthood, I envied my friends, as I had no such structure in my early life. My father was a war casualty (Normandy to Belgium where he suffered physical and emotional scars that kept him incarcerated in VA hospitals the remainder of his life). My point in saying this is that I have been accused of anti-Semitism repeatedly in this forum. I hadn't given much thought over the years about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I assumed, like most of us, that Israel was born into an empty land, and had been fighting for it's life simply because rabid Muslim Palestinians hated Jews. So I experienced considerable angst when my reading and research revealed that my simple assumptions were based on lies. Facts and evidence show that Israel was founded on the blood of thousands of innocent families who had been pushed out of the way. My newfound negative views of Israel conflicted with the fondness and great admiration that I had for the good Jewish People. Only by realizing that the State of Israel and Judaism are two separate entities, could the cognitive dissonance that I was experiencing be resolved. This resolution was later confirmed while reading PALESTINE, PEACE NOT APARTHEID, by President Carter. On page 32, Golda Meir indicated clearly the secular nature of the Israeli Government. Modern Israel is a secular government power structure that exploits religion, as most governments do, to enhance and consolidate it's power base. Those here who hatefully disparage and condemn innocent people who are under illegal oppressive military occupation while proclaiming their adherence to Talmud ethics are hypocrites. Such behavior, I believe, would not be acceptable to the God that I know, nor of the good Jewish family that I grew up with. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Once again I'll present a logical argument. I am of Welsh/German and Native American descent. If I gather thousands of people also of like heritage, could we be expected to be able to go to , say, Ghana, or Bangledesh and throw native Ghanans or Bangledeshi families from their homes, kill imprison and starve those who resist us, and impose military checkpoints and conditions that deny basic human rights to thiose we displace and send fleeing into exile? Why not? Israel does it. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Kerry Winn, You wrote,"Why did the Nakba occur? The Arabs invaded; remember? No, Mr. Winn, You lose! It was Jewish people from all over the world who invaded, remember? Every third grader knows that Jews in large numbers immigrated to the land of Palestine and created their country, Israel. Were you sick a year and didn't get that history lesson? Arabs from surrounding nations came to the aid of Palestinians after the Nakba was well underway: Pappe’s book reveals how meticulously the Zionist movement planned, executed, lied about, and then denied their takeover of Palestinian land and the removal (through force and terror) of its population. He presents Israeli policies against the Palestinian minority inside Israel as well as in the West Bank and Gaza in their proper historical framework, setting the record straight on truths that conceptualize the situation faced by Palestinians today. Pappe only briefly touches on the role of Theodor Herzl, the founder of the Zionist movement in the late 1800s, to show how deeply rooted the concept of "transfer" of the indigenous population was, how the "demographic problem" as viewed by most Israelis today is a continuation of the original Zionist exclusionist view. A map from 1919 clearly illustrates Zionist intentions to grab all of Palestine. The Herzl ideologues stated that "strangers" lived in their biblical land and by stranger they meant everyone who was not Jewish, although most of Palestine’s Jews had left after the Roman period. And even today, a recent poll indicated that 68 percent of Israeli Jews want Palestinian citizens of Israel to be "transferred." Much of the book’s exposure concerns David Ben-Gurion, one of the masterminds and leading overseers of the Zionist project and the ethnic cleansing that implemented it. From the mid-1920s, Ben-Gurion functioned as the unofficial defense minister (or minister of war) of the not-yet officially formed state and later became its founding prime minister. He worked on an international level as well as locally organizing other Zionists around his methods and goals. It was in his home that ethnic cleansing was first discussed with a combination of security figures and "Arab affairs" specialists (Jews who grew up in the region and could speak Arabic) who would advise future governments of Israel (Pappe calls it the Consultancy). His view toward achieving a Zionist state was ambitious and strategic. He thought it could only be won by force, but that the Zionists had to wait for the opportune historical moment to be able to deal "militarily" (as Ben-Gurion put it) with the demographic reality on the ground: the presence of a non-Jewish native majority population. When in 1937 the British offered the Jewish community a future state (on a much smaller percentage of land than the UN was to give it in 1948), he accepted that as a good beginning in that it formalized the idea. He had far more ambitious plans. In 1942 Ben-Gurion publicly stated the Zionist claim for all of Palestine, but later came to believe that this was not realistic and that 80 percent would be sufficient for a viable Israeli state. http://www.rwor.org/a/130/AWTW-Nakba-en.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr Katz, I suggest a good read that may address your statement of concern regarding the US abandoning Israel; http://www.harpers.org/archive/2005/01/0080361 As for your comment regarding Israeli contributions to the World and your inferrence of Arab inferiority in that regard: http://muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=1161 http://www.jannah.org/articles/contrib.html http://www.sfusd.edu/schwww/sch618/ScienceMath/Science_and_Math.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Paul Winter, I can claim that the American civil war didn't happen, that it was to paraphrase your words,"merely the false narrative" of Confederate malcontents. Because I uttered such nonsense doesn't make it so, just as your ignorant utterances about the Palestinian Nakba don't have validity. If I were to stupidly claim that the Jewish Holocaust didn't happen, I would get nothing but hateful commentary here for such an ignorant comment. And I would rightly deserve the wrath of all of those with good conscience who sympathize and empathize with families and loved ones of those who suffered at the hands of Nazis, Yet you and others deny the Palestinian Nakba, an event that is as well documented as the Holocaust. How can you demand recognition of documented Jewish suffering, yet deny Palestinian suffering that has brought equally great as misery to many Palestinian families as to Jewish families? http://imeu.net/news/article008737.shtml 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I've posted more, but my post was flagged for monitoring because of "possiblespam". But to continue.... Mr. Katz, you said, " Ironically, Israel is the one country in the area with no oil. So they’ve had to rely on their brains and moxie to succeed in technology, medicine, agriculture, music and multiple other areas. The Arabs could learn many lessons from tiny Israel" Israel is currently side-drilling into newfound (2000) gas fields off the Gaza coast, stealing Palestinian natural gas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IutfTigG4tI http://mountainmemos.blogspot.com/2009/03/gaza-war-and-natural-gas.html http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11680 This and continuing theft of lands must be the "moxie' you refer to. Also, for a look at what Arabs have offered the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqRux0XsRmg&feature=related http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/980422/1998042208.html for more of the creativity of Muslim culture that we seldom hear about or acknowledge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqRux0XsRmg&feature=related 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 The losing side of wars that Muslims joined had little to do with average Muslim people, as these people have been victims of their leadership and tribal ways. Most, like most people of all cultures were powerless in undemocratic systems. So for this, they today should all suffer more? Unlike Europeans, the Middle East people didn't develop powerful industrial war machines. So for this they should be scorned? Many were shepherdic nomads, but many more farmed the lands and built towns and villages. By the 19th and early 20th century, Palestinians had a thriving culture: http://www.nakba-archive.org/photo48.htm http://imeu.net/news/article008714.shtml Your accusation that Israel has a cleaner human rights violations record is just no so, as Israel has a terrible record: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel http://www.ifex.org/israel/2009/08/17/false_allegations/ http://australiansforpalestine.com/breaking-news-rights-group-slams-israeli-attempt-to-silence-critics I can find no record of equally-violated human rights actions of Palestinian government bodies. As for the monies given to Israel vs Palestine courtesy of US taxes: The U.S. is providing Israel with at least $7.0 million each day* in military aid and is giving the Palestinians $0** in military aid during Fiscal Year 2009. “Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S. economic and military assistance since 1976 and the largest total recipient since World War ll. Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars. Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.” - John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy" 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Katz, the Philippines has had a history of foreign dominance, and the Moro conflicts to which you refer are more about dominance and resistance to dominance than about religion: "The Moro Rebellion is referred to as the second phase of the Philippine-American War. Modern Muslim rebels of the southern Philippines see the Moro Rebellion a continuing struggle against foreign rule, Christian influences, the Spanish, Americans, and the Philippine government." With newfound oil and minerals in Luzon, the issue of autonomy and of control over the resources is the reason for ongoing conflict. A friend of mine lost his wife to a Huk raid in the early 60's as she was targeted by insurgents. He was a US Marine, serving in the Philippines. Like the current Muslim insurgents, the Philippine wars were and still are about resisting oppression (from Spanish colonization to Japanese invasion, to US -imposed proxy governments). Newfound oil across the African continent guarantee continued and accellerated strife in that region of our world, as governments and peoples challenge each other for dominance there. Expansion of empire and securing resources of empire are what nations DO. Check out the mission of our new AFRICOM: "Prior to the creation of AFRICOM, three Unified Commands had divided responsibility for U.S. military operations in Africa. The United States Navy´s Naval Postgraduate School noted in January 2007 that U.S. policy towards Africa, at least in the medium-term, looks to be largely defined by international terrorism, the increasing importance of African oil to American energy needs, and the dramatic expansion and improvement of Sino-African relations since the turn of the century.[5] A U.S. military officer wrote the first public article calling for the formation of an African Command published in November 2000.[6] A January 2002 report from the African Oil Policy Initiative Group played a role in getting discussions about such a command started within the U.S. national security community, though their specific recommendation was to create a subcommand for the Gulf of Guinea.[7] The AOPIG report emphasised that the U.S. intelligence community has estimated that the United States will buy 25 percent of its oil from Africa by 2015. In general, areas of increasing interest to the United States in Africa include the Sahara/Sahel region,[8] over which Joint Task Force Aztec Silence is conducting anti-terrorist operations (known as Operation Enduring Freedom - Trans Sahara), the Horn of Africa, where Combined Joint Task Force - Horn of Africa is located in Djibouti (conducting operations which have been called Operation Enduring Freedom - Horn of Africa), and the Gulf of Guinea, whose oil resources are expected to gain in importance. As always, people who object to the squandering and exploitation of their resources are crushed militarily by empires. The"war on terror" in oil rich regions is a front for theft of resources from indigenous peoples through establishment and support of corrupt "business-friendly" governments. It will be interesting to see how the impending wars play out in the various states of Africa as US forces come belatedly to the deals that have already been made with China there. http://www.cfr.org/publication/9557/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Kats, you seem to be a voice of reason here. You state that Jews have always had a presence in the land that is Israel. You are correct, or at least, correct regarding historical times. Historically, OTHERS have also had a presence there. And before historical records, one archeological theory has it that we all migrated out of Africa from a common ancestor. If this is true, why can't I move to the savannas of Africa and claim property rights there? Unlike others here who seem to have nothing better to do than rant hatefully about people they know little about, I must go to my job now, but I will respond to some of the other points you make later. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 The people who frequent al-Jazeera and Daily Kos already know thes truths, Cheryl, so why would I sing to the choir? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For the other side of this story: http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=222886 For more such stories: http://farmingunderfire.blogspot.com/search/label/Israeli attacks during ceasefire 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Cheryl Mavrikos, I'll do you a favor. Just click on my name and you will be linked to all 179 posts that I have contributed to this forum. Find just one anti-Semite comment that I have made here or anywhere else, EVER, and I will leave this site and all of the despicable racist pigs here alone. Good luck. I'm getting bored with respomnding repeatedly to your false charges and lies about me or my motives. You are using common Zionist-supporter's tactics of labeling anyone who challenges Israel as a hater of Jews. Would your racist comments about Palestinians be tolerated here if Negroes were the target of your twisted hatred? Would God approve of your comments regarding innocent people who are also His children? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 If Israeli guard posts weren't on Palestinian land, there would be no incidents such as this one. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Kats, You ignore the fact that it wasn't until Jewish immigrants from all over the World started migrating into a land that few of them had any modern historical connection to, that there was a problem. Darfur isn't an atomic power that is supported by our taxes, as Israel is. US and British hegemony in the Middle East is predicated on the vast oil reserves there. The 60 year conflict there has as much to do with control of where the oil goes as it has to do with displacing Palestinians to give a country to abused Jewish people. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is at the very heart of animosity between the Middle East and the West. The Ottoman Empire desintigration marked the beginning of ,as osama Bin Laden declared, " 80 years of disgrace and humiliation" of the Arab World, as first the Mandate powers, then Israel/US has imposed their will on a proud people. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Perhaps you and others may want to provide evidence for the charge that I am a liar, Mr. Edwards? Instead of empty false charges, provide documents that refute the UN and International Human Rights groups' reports and International Court of Justice rulings that I have provided and linked to here that clearly show that Israel is the violent aggressor state that it is. Refute the FACT that Israel didn't dispossess and murder thousands of people to get its lands. Provide evidence that the ongopin military occupation of the West Bank is legal and just. Provide evidence that Israel forces are not shooting and killing innocent non-violent people thatt counters these videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFUsSpcZjW0 http://vodpod.com/watch/1432349-caught-on-video-aim-to-the-face-and-shoot Israel is engaging in unlawful, unjust theft of lands. Show me data that refutes this. Show me data tha Israel has borders based on the land that it was granted in 1947. No one here can refute with facts and evidence anything I have posted here. So they just want me to go away. Ain't happening! 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 You here who continue to demonize innocent people who are Palestinian ignore the simple fact that ISRAEL INVADED PALESTINE. PALESTINIANS ARE VICTIMS OF ONGOING THEFT OF THEIR LANDS AND MURDERING OF THEIR PEOPLE. You are supporting an unjust regime and inhumane policies when you side with this atrocious behavior. It's as simple as that. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 And Mr.Marquis, Contrary to your assumption that land conquered in was can be renamed at the whims of the aggressor, the UN and the International Court of Justice have repeatedly ruled that Israel has no legal rights to lands that it has occupied and conquered: "THE HAGUE, 9 July 2004. The International Court of Justice (ICJ), principal judicial organ of the United Nations, has today rendered its Advisory Opinion in the case concerning the Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (request for advisory opinion)." http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=71&code=mwp&p1=3&p2=4&p3=6&case=131&k=5a Also read this, re: 4th Geneva convention: There are 149 substantive articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that protect the rights of every one of these Palestinians living in occupied Palestine. The Israeli Government is currently violating, and has since 1967 been violating, almost each and every one of these sacred rights of the Palestinian People recognized by the Fourth Geneva Convention. Indeed, violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes." http://ifamericansknew.com/cur_sit/boyle.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Melvin Marquis, perhaps you are unaware of some of the massacres by Israeli's against Palestinians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_in_Palestine Israeli leaders officially refer to Palestinian citizens as Israeli Arabs, because to acknowledge the term Palestinian, acknowledges Palestine, a country, and that doesn't fit the myth of "empty land". While it is comforting to think of the Israeli-Arab conflict of 1948 as Israel's 'War of Independance", this is a myth: " Under considerable Zionist pressure, the UN recommended giving away 55% of Palestine to a Jewish state – despite the fact that this group represented only about 30% of the total population, and owned under 7% of the land. 1947-1949 War While it is widely reported that the resulting war eventually included five Arab armies, less well known is the fact that throughout this war Zionist forces outnumbered all Arab and Palestinian combatants combined – often by a factor of two to three. Moreover, Arab armies did not invade Israel – virtually all battles were fought on land that was to have been the Palestinian state. Finally, it is significant to note that Arab armies entered the conflict only after Zionist forces had committed 16 massacres, including the grisly massacre of over 100 men, women, and children at Deir Yassin. Future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, head of one of the Jewish terrorist groups, described this as “splendid,” and stated: “As in Deir Yassin, so everywhere, we will attack and smite the enemy. God, God, Thou has chosen us for conquest.” Zionist forces committed 33 massacres altogether. By the end of the war, Israel had conquered 78 percent of Palestine; three-quarters of a million Palestinians had been made refugees; over 500 towns and villages had been obliterated; and a new map was drawn up, in which every city, river and hillock received a new, Hebrew name, as all vestiges of the Palestinian culture were to be erased. For decades Israel denied the existence of this population, former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir once saying: “There is no such thing as a Palestinian.” http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/ So, essentially, Israel violently took far more land than the UN granted it, and it has been stealing land ever since. Now Palestinians control less than 10% of the land they had in 1947, and they are losing more as Israel expands, daily. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Cheryl says, "One more thing, if I may, Ari - you are using reasoned argument to “understand” the Palestinians, but I feel that they’ve moved so far beyond reason that we cannot even use moral equivalence as a means of showing compassion to them. They ought to be charged with crimes against humanity, crimes against children, crimes against women..." I remind her that Israel has repestedly been charged with these very crimes: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129318 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Gary Katz, Your claim that more Palestinians stayed put without incident during the Nakba may be comforting to those who think it was not so bad for the Palestinians after all is wrong, just as all of the other myths, including an empty land is wrong: Population 4. According to official estimates, the population of Palestine grew from 750,000 at the census of 1922 to 1,765,000 at the end of 1944. In this period the Jewish part of the population rose from 84,000 to 554,000, and from 13 to 31 percent of the whole. Three-fourths of this expansion of the Jewish community was accounted for by immigration. Meanwhile the Arabs, though their proportion of the total population was falling, had increased by an even greater number-the Moslems alone from 589,000 to 1,061,000.* There were about 130,000 Christians and Druse, many of them were also displaced. So of the approx 1,200,000 non Jews in Palestine at the time, about 720,000 were displaced. Do the math. That's a majority of the people of Palestine who were moved out of the way in the creation of Israel. http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Will Edwards, You spew forth a lot of venemous lies. Please justify this comment based on what I have posted here. "Katz try to remember David Evans is a lying murderous cowardly Palestinian dog of a human being… a mongrel of hatred." I have not lied here, I certainly hhaven't murdered anyone, and as my documented Marine Corp service record will show, I am no coward. And Cheryl, I have never denied the Holocaust here. I have, however repeatedly stated in this venue that Israel uses the good Jewish victims of the persecutions and the Holocaust to quell any challenge to Israel's illegal and inhumane treatment of Palestinians. By promoting the construct of "Jews, the victims", Israel is able to turn legitimate accusations of misbehavior to charges of Holocaust denial or of the accuser attacking the 'victim" (Israel). "Drawing on a wide range of sources, the author exposes the pivotal role of the Holocaust in Israel's public sphere, in its project of nation building, its politics of power, and in its perception of the conflict with the Palestinians. She argues that the centrality of the Holocaust has led to a culture of death and victimhood which permeates Israel’s society and self image. This penetrating book offers an entirely new perspective on Israel, its history and the construction of national identity." http://www.cup.es/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521850967 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For a long list of Jewish terrorist activieies compiled by the UN during the Nakba that some here deny: Timeline of Zionist Terror from a UN committee New York, 01 October 1948 The UN Report Prepared in 1948 for Ralphe Bunche, New UN Commissioner to Palestine Foreword: In view of the tragic assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte by identified Jewish terrorists on September 17 of this year, the following report has been prepared for the use of Dr. Bunche, Count Bernadotte's immediate replacement. http://www.al-nakba-history.com/origins1948/unterrorismchronology.html And the Nakba is continuing: http://www.al-nakba-history.com/alnakbacontinuing/landtheftdestruction.html Good site with a lot of Nakba data and photos: http://www.palestineremembered.com/ "Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict, UNRWA was established by Resolution 302(IV). At the outset, UNRWA focussed on direct relief operations. Later, UNRWA began to deliver basic education and health services, training and income-generation initiatives, and to support the development of community-based services. In 1950, there were some 900,000 registered Palestine refugees, compared to some 3.7 million now." http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/1ce874ab1832a53e852570bb006dfaf6/4ba6b5aed86db9e7852568cf0065590c?OpenDocument The Nakba is alive and thriving at the hands of Israel. And Cheryl, I have never denied the Jewish Holocaust. I have rightfully claimed that Israeli propagandists use the suffering and death of those Holocaust victims to squelch any criticism of Israel. My words have never denied the Holocaust, and you know that. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 let's quit twisting and spinning words, Cheryl. As anyone who checks my posts will finf, I have never denied the Jewish Holocaust. I have expressed great sympathy for the 6 million victims of the vile Nazi regime. I do have a problem however with Israeli propagandists that continue using the suffering and death of innocent Jewish people to further their ends. As I've said here before, the Holocaust is invoked any time there is challenge to Israeli policies, as challenge to Israel is deemed challenge to the victims. One is deemed insensitive to Jewish victims if he dares challenge Israel. "How dare you question the poor Jews..Haven't they suffered enough? You must be an anti Semite!" goes the false charges. And the narrative is changed in the conversation from challenge of Israel, to challenge of Israel's accuser. As I said, why are there 27 Jewish Holocaust museums in the US, and why is the Jewish Holocaust being taught in our schools, whenother Holocausts are ignored? What of the 5 million others who died in the camps in Germany? Why aren't their deaths acknowledge also? And what of all of the other genocides of the 20th and 21st century? Why aren't they also taught in our schools? Because there are no propagandists and lobby groups like AIPAC to see that our legislators continue doing the bidding of Israel. That's why. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Thank you, Michael Levin, for this piece. Just as Adolph Hitler tried to wipe out Judaism in Germany, Israel is attempting to wipe out all traces of Palestinians. Their very name, PALESTINIANS is being denied, as they are referred to in all media as ARABS. Of the Palestinian towns and villages that were not completely destroyed by Israeli troops during the Nakba, no Palestinian names remain. All street signs were changed to the liking of the new Jewish inhabitants. And this process, while slowed, has continued as The Wall continues to encroach on Palestinian lands, and Palestinian families are forceably removed from their homes in Jerusalem and harrassed and intimidated and denied building permits (which encourages separation of families and relocation) elsewhere all over the West Bank. http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10739.shtml http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106886754 http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/daily_life.html All here, by only the Grace of God, were not born a Palestinian. How can you champion such abuses of Israel against innocent families who just happen to be in the way of Israel's expansionist goals? Does not our Talmud teach justice and mercy? For those who say that violence by a few Palestinians is justification for caging them like animals and killing them, confiscating their lands and destroying their property, and denying them equality, remember that it was Israelis who invaded Palestine and upset the lives of millions of people. It was not Palistinians who invaded Israelis. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Yeah, Cheryl, Nice story, but it wouldn't be so heartwarming if Grover was featured as an IDF soldier shooting unarmed palestinians or denying medical care to a pregnant Palestinian woman at a checkpoint.. Or if he watched gleefully from a hillside overlooking Gaza as little Palestinian kids were burned alive with Israeli white phosphorous shells. The WWII Holocaust survivors are dying of old age, so a new generation of Zionists must be steeped in ignorance of what the birth of Israel meant to 800,000 people who were driven out of the way. No mention of their Nakba will ever be uttered by Grover as he connects these kids to only part of their heritage. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Katz, Do you realize how stupid your comment, "The “nakba” is merely a point of view over an historical fact, the reformation of Israel." makes you appear here? The Nakba is HISTORICAL FACT that is as well documented as much of the Jewish Holocaust is well documented. The Nakba is hardly a mere point of view. As uncomfortable that the slaughter and dispossession of 800,000 innocent people may make you, it is inexcusable for you to minimize their suffering great and loss by declaring that event as "merely a point of view". What you have done is as despicable as what a Holocaust denier or minimizer does. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 What wasn't mentioned in the article was the following statement from another Hamas leader: "Hamas's official spokesman in Gaza, Sami Abu Zuhri, did not say the Holocaust was a 'lie,' but told Reuters that Hamas opposes "forcing the issue of the so-called Holocaust onto the syllabus, because it aims to reinforce acceptance of the occupation of Palestinian land." http://au.messages.yahoo.com/news/world/217037/ Besides, is the refusal to teach the Jewish Holocaust to Palestinian children and different than the failure to teach the Nakba to Jewish children? http://www.jta.org/news/article///// (notice the threatening headline text that doesn't match the intent of those in the story) also....... http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story1649.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 While much has been made of this story: Hamas slams UN over "Holocaust classes" in Gaza http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSLU321904 ...this one gets ignored in popular media: Nakba removal from classrooms spurs threats August 31, 2009 This is but one of thousands of examples that are pro-Israeli / anti-Palestinian biased. http://www.jta.org/news/article///// 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Cheryl Mavrikos, I post here in an effort to shed light on some of the lies and propaganda that give rise to hatred and never-ending suffering. Nothing that I have posted here has been refuted with facts. Perhaps you should read some of the works of this Israeli Jew who has the admiration of many: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Laor http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n16/laor01_.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/739501.html As for the story on Hamas slamming UNRWA for allowing teaching of the Holocaust to Palestinian Children in Gaza, you left out this comment from another Hamas leader: "Hamas's official spokesman in Gaza, Sami Abu Zuhri, did not say the Holocaust was a 'lie,' but told Reuters that Hamas opposes "forcing the issue of the so-called Holocaust onto the syllabus, because it aims to reinforce acceptance of the occupation of Palestinian land." http://au.messages.yahoo.com/news/world/217037/ These are the kindas of lies and half-truths that I've repeatedly refuted here. Besides, is a Hamas leader's wish to refuse acknowledgment of the Jewish Holocaust any different from Zionist supporters including those of you here, denying the Palestinian Nakba? "The Nakba denial is found in the geography and the history taught in schools, on the maps of the country and in the signs marking places on its surface. All of them ignore almost completely the event which made possible the establishment of the Jewish State as a state with a Jewish majority and a Palestinian minority, after the majority of the indigenous people of the country were evicted, their properties destroyed and/or confiscated for the benefit of the new state. How can we understand this denial of the Nakba?" for the rest of the article: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story1649.html ...also: Nakba removal from classrooms spurs threats August 31, 2009 http://www.jta.org/news/article///// I copy and paste in support of my argument. Many here just write opinions (with no supporting articles or evidence) that are not based on facts. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 This is how the Zionists share the land with some of their own Israeli citizens: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10739.shtml 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I see no reason that our taxes should be supporting Israeli propaganda. Jewish people constitute a mere 2 % of US population. We have a growing SE Asian population. Are we expected to pay for "Killing Fields" education and awareness programs and be continually reminded of the misdeeds and atrocities of Pol Pot against the people of Cambodia? Probably not. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Kennedy, like his brothers, and unlike his father, was a champion of those oppressed. As for the tragedy a Chappaquiddick, many of us in our youth have exercized poor judgement and moral lapse that could just have easily turned tragic. I thank God every day that some such events in my life didn't bring harm to innocent people. Perhaps Ted Kennedy was motivated by Teshuvah in all the good works of his life. .. as we all should be. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Also, check out this video about the impending collapse of Zionism in the US: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2587693067472444036&hl=en 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 And check out this video about the impending collapse of Zionism in the US: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2587693067472444036&hl=en 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Please see what good Jewish people are saying on the streets of Israel: http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/5934/another-video-from-israel/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 rezasantorini, I live in the United States. If my family grows (natural growth, as Netanyahu calls it) I cannot expect to move Mexicans or Canadians out of their homes and off of their lands to make room for my growing family. Yet this is precicely what Israel is doing as it builds new colonies on Palestinian lands. Your argument is invalid. Terry Rowe, i agree that the seriousness of the subject warrants open, even vehement discussion based on facts, evidence and logic. Opinions and anecdotal musings contribute little and propogate myths and lies. But, I for one, welcome blackies illogical biased and slanderous rantings, as his rantings are evidence of how harmful Israeli propaganda can be. Posts such as his deny credibility to the Zionist's cause. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 If this weren't concern enough for Zionist supporters here, I bring additional bad news for those who have gotten away with murder and land theft for way too long: http://www.truthout.org/060909R 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 debbie schussel, Thank you for enlightening some of us here to the deeds of Robert Novak. While you are critical of his words, you give very little argument in your article that would challenge his words with facts and evidence. Robert Novak supported Daniel Ortega's Sandanistas. You say he supported Castro, and Hamas. So what? Daniel Ortega was the elected President of the Nicarauguan people. Fidel Castro had the support of his people when he threw the corrupt Batista regime out of power, and Hamas won the democratic election that Fatah failed to acknowledge. Support of free elections and the will of the people is a good thing, yet you denounce Mr. Novak for his support of this. Perhaps you may care to explain why? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 "The Zionists did not drive the Palestinians into the sea, but they did drive them from their homes and villages and ancestral lands and from Palestine and into squalid refugee camps, and in the process massacred two to three thousand. The irony of Ben Gurion's statement should not escape us. Ben Gurion and the Zionists demand deference for a fictitious intention on the part of the Palestinian and Arabs while ignoring or denying the very real expulsion of the Palestinians. Much of the perception of Israel and much of its popular support rest on the myth of the purity of Israel and much of that can be traced directly to David Ben Gurion's distortions of truth. The unambiguous historical evidence is that the state of Israel was founded upon terrorism and the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Arab population. There is nothing pure or righteous about that." For the rest of the article: http://ramallahonline.com/articles/ben-gurion-qwe-must-expel-the-arabs-and-take-their-placeq ...and for the reason many of us believe the lies of Israel: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 And in a letter to his son, also in 1937, he stated: We must expel the Arabs and take their places and if we have to use force, to guarantee our own right to settle in those places ­ then we have force at our disposal. And in early 1948 Ben Gurion wrote in his War Diary, "During the assault we must be ready to strike the decisive blow; that is, either to destroy the towns or expel its inhabitants so our people can replace them." And in February 1948, Ben Gurion told Yoseph Weitz, director of the settlement of the Jewish National Fund and head of the official Transfer Committee of 1948: The war will give us land. The concept of 'ours' and 'not ours' are peace concepts, only, in war they lose their whole meaning. In fact, the concept of transfer, a euphemism for expulsion, was embraced by the entire Jewish leadership from the earliest stages of Zionism until the 1948 extirpation of the indigenous population. Transfer committees were actually set up from 1937 on until 1948 in order to study ways of riding Palestine of as many Arabs as possible. By the end of the 1948 War, hundreds of Arab villages had been completely depopulated. Their house and buildings were bulldozed of blown up primarily for the purpose of preventing the return of their owners. Benny Morris lists 369 Palestinian villages and towns destroyed, while Professor Walid Khalidi, leading a team of field researchers, in an exhaustive study, describes the destruction of each of 418 villages or hamlets which are listed on an index of Palestinian cities of 1945. Quoting from Ilan Pappe's book, A History of Modern Palestine: [W]hen winter was over and the spring of 1949 warmed a particularly frozen Palestine, the land which we have described ­ reconstructing a period stretching over 250 years ­ had changed beyond recognition. The countryside, the rural heart of Palestine, with its colourful and picturesque villages was ruined. Half the villages had been destroyed, flattened by Israeli bulldozers which had been at work since August 1948 when the government had decided to either turn them into cultivated land or to build new Jewish settlements on their remains. A naming committee granted the new settlements Hebraized versions of the original Arab names . David Ben Gurion explained that this was done as part of an attempt to prevent future claim to the villages. It was also supported by the Israeli archeologists, who had authorized the names as returning the map to something resembling 'ancient Israel'. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 On 11 October 1961 Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion declared in the Israeli Knesset: Editor Note: (Must Read article by Mr. Martin- Published March 11, 2005 @ Counterpunch.org) 'The Arabs' exit from Palestine...began immediately after the UN resolution, from the areas earmarked for the Jewish state. And we have explicit documents testifying that they left Palestine following instructions by the Arab leaders, with the Mufti at their head, under the assumption that the invasion of the Arab armies at the expiration of the Mandate will destroy the Jewish state and push all the Jews into the sea, dead or alive'. Thus, Mr Ben Gurion is asserting that it is his perception that 1) there were directions from the neighboring Arab states and the Mufti in Jerusalem for the indigenous Arabs of Palestine to evacuate their homes and lands on the promise that the Arab armies would destroy the nascent Jewish state, and, further, 2) that those armies intended to "push all the Jews into the sea, dead or alive". The phrase "push all the Jews into the sea, dead or alive" has acquired a life of its own as it is invoked by Zionist supporters on a daily basis in order to justify the aggressive policies of Israel as well as its recalcitrance in continuing the occupation of the Palestinians of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. For more truths, including a Ben Gurion lie: "Recall that the Deir Yassin massacre, which occurred on April 9 1948, claimed the lives of about 240 men women and children of this peaceful village and included rapes and mutilations. See, The Deir Yassin Massacre. There were other massacres, perhaps two to three thousands, essentially defenseless, Palestinians were massacred, according to Haifa University historian Ilan Pappe, however the Deir Yassin massacre was widely publicized and became, in some ways, the signature of the Irgun and the Stern Gang. Altogether the report states, Jewish [Haganah/IDF, Irgun, Stern] military accounted for 70% if the Arab exodus from Palestine. In direct contradiction to Ben Gurion, the report states "the Arab institutions attempted to struggle against the phenomenon of flight and evacuation, and to curb the waves of emigration". The Arab Higher Committee imposed restrictions, and issued threats, punishments, and propaganda in the radio and press to curb the emigration, and also tried to mobilize the governments in the neighboring Arab states to assist in this effort, as both shared the same interest. "More than once", the report states, "[Haganah/IDF units were forced] to expel inhabitants [after they had returned to their homes]". Thus in sum, this document, which is only one of many to have surfaced in consequence of the historical research of the last 20 years completely refutes Ben Gurion's claim and reveals it to have no basis in fact. Mr Ben Gurion was lying through his teeth, to put it plainly. It should be observed that the Jewish agency in Palestine declared itself a state on May 14, 1948. It was the next day, May 15 that the first of five Arab armies or contingents of armies entered Palestine. Thus, approximately half of the 1948 refugees fled or were extirpated before the first foreign Arab soldier set foot in Palestine. The time line is important: the Deir Yassin Massacre occurred on April 9, the expulsion of Arabs from the cities of Jaffe, Haifa, Tiberias, and Safid occurred at the end of April and in the first days of May. The flight of the Palestinian refugees, thus, was not set in motion by the entrance of the Arab armies as is often claimed. Nor should we take from Mr Ben Gurion's statement that the concept of Palestinian evacuation was confined to the years 1947 - 1948. The concept of transfer of the indigenous Arab population to make way for a Jewish state was intrinsic to the thinking of the Zionist leaders from its initial inception. Thus Theodor Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, said in 1892: [We shall] spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly. And in 1937, Ben Gurion stated: The compulsory transfer of Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had, even when we stood on our own feet during the days of the First and Second Temple. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ...and for those here who claim the separateness of "God's Chosen" from other Peoples: "Another team, lead by Almut Nebel at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, took a closer look in 2001. They found that Jewish lineages essentially bracket Muslim Kurds, but they were also very closely related to Palestinians. In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes - what you would expect if they were originally from the same stock, but that Palestinians had mixed a little with Arab immigrants. They conclude: We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000). According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula... So, as far as male lineage goes, the genetic story is very clear. Palestinians and Jews are virtually indistinguishable. Women are a bit more tricky... Up until last year, the matrilineal heritage of Jews also seemed pretty clear. Analysis of elements in mitochondrial DNA (which is passed from mother to daughter) seemed to show that Jewish populations around Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East were derived from at least 8 unrelated 'founding mothers'. Where they came from wasn't clear, but the most likely explanation was that they were from local populations that bred with immigrant Jewish males. Their offspring became absorbed into the Jewish community. In 2008, a more sophisticated analysis was published that made use of whole mitochondrial DNA sequences. They found no evidence for the genetic bottle necks that indicate founding mothers in the large Jewish populations. Instead, they found a complicated picture with a very diverse gene pool suggesting intermarriage both with local populations and other Jewish groups. The overall conclusion is that the female Jewish line deviates a lot more from the Palestinian heritage than the male line, but the heritage is still there. So that's the good news. Jews and Palestinian Arabs are blood brothers - although this close genetic relationship probably stems from pre-Judaic times, rather than any more recent conversion of Palestinian Jews to Islam. And the bad news? Well, this basic story has been known for the best part of a decade now. But, perhaps unsurprisingly, it hasn't lead to the warring sides laying down their weapons and engaging in a group hug. This is a religious conflict, not a genetic one." http://bhascience.blogspot.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html Jews and Palestinians are the same people. They have chosen or were imbued by teachings, separate religions. All native people to the area share equal right to the lands of their ancestors. Israel has no moral right to impose millions of immigrants of Jewish religious beliefs on the local population. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Dave Swaim. Let uscompare Jerusalem with another great city, Constantinople, which was founded by converted Christian Constantine in 330 AD. Constantinople, like Jerusalem was repeatedly conquered. Today, the predominant religion and culture is Muslim. Would Christians from all over the world be justified in "returning" to Istanbul because that city was founded as a "Christian City" in 330? Would these new immigrants to Istanbul be allowed to forcefully remove families from their homes and settle and build on Turkish farmlands? Let's say that these new arrivals had the military and monetary support of China, which supplied them with nuclear weapons, tanks, fighter jets and artillery which they used to contain and crush any resistance of the Turks who lost their homes. Would China be justified in supporting this gross injustice to the poeple of Istanbul? Or would the World also condemn both China and the newly-arrived Christians for their immoral behavior, as the World now condemns Israel and the US for atrocities they are committing in Palestine/Israel? Probably not. Because such a rediculous claim would be dismissed as a gross injustice. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 "The goal was simple and straightforward - to create an exclusive Jewish state without an Arab presence by any means including mass-murder. Once begun, the whole ugly business took six months to complete. It expelled about 800,000 people, killed many others, and destroyed 531 villages and 11 urban neighborhoods in cities like Tel-Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem. The action was a clear case of ethnic cleansing that international law today calls a crime against humanity for which convicted Nazis at Nuremberg were hanged. So far Israelis have always remained immune from international law even though names of guilty leaders and those charged with implementing their orders are known as well as the crimes they committed. They included cold-blooded mass-murder; destruction of homes, villages and crops; rapes; other atrocities; and massacres of defenseless people given no quarter including women and children. The crimes were suppressed and expunged from official accounts as Israeli historiography cooked up the myth that Palestinians left voluntarily fearing harm from invading Arab armies. It was a lie covering up Israeli crimes Palestinians call the Nakba - the catastrophe or disaster that's still a cold, harsh festering unresolved injustice. Even with British armed presence still in charge of law and order before its Mandate ended, Jewish forces completed the expulsion of about 250,000 Palestinians the Brits did nothing to stop. It continued unabated because when neighboring Arab states finally intervened, they did so without conviction. They came belatedly and with only small, ill-equipped forces, no match for a superior, well-armed Israeli military easily able to prevail as discussed below. Ethnic Cleansing Defined Pappe notes that ethnic cleansing is well-defined in international law that calls it a crime against humanity. He cites several definitions including from the Hutchinson encyclopedia saying it's expulsion by force to homogenize the population. The US State Department concurs adding its essence is to eradicate a region's history. The United Nations used a similar definition in 1993 when the UN Commission on Human Rights (UNCHR) characterized it as the desire of a state or regime to impose ethnic rule on a mixed area using expulsion and other violence including separating men and women, detentions, murder of males of all ages who might become combatants, destruction of houses, and repopulating areas with another ethnic group." http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=4715 For more fact: http://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/Responding_to_Zionist_Propaganda_5356/index.html Palestinians were sitting ducks, as they weren't allowed arms during the British Mandate period. Israelis had fighter planes, tanks and artillery which they used indiscriminately on civilians in more than 500 towns and villages that they overran. Massacres were committed by Israeli troops in several Palestinian towns: 'According to Morris the Israelis were responsible for 24 massacres during the war[2] but Saleh Abdel Jawad has listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians, where no threat was posed to Israeli soldiers, took place. He calculates that 455 people were killed at al-Dawayima including 170 women and children.[5" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_War Your account of the massive invasion by Jews into Palestinian lands is not supported by facts. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Brownstein, You believe in myths: Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, September 1999, pages 43-44 Special Report Israel’s Cult of Disinformation and the Complications of Basing a Policy Upon a Foundation of Lies By Andrew I. Killgore “It is...hard to give up a home and a life built from scratch in a sparsely populated wilderness....”—Deborah Sontag, New York Times, April 14, 1999 “The art of telling a sustained lie requires a great deal of daily practice.” —Fyodor Dostoevsky The slogan of the Zionist movement was “the land without people—for the people without land.” Written a hundred years ago (1901) by Israel Zangwill, it pretended Palestine had no people. It was promoted so credibly that some Jewish immigrants to Palestine were astonished when they first encountered the Palestinians already living there. After 750,000 Palestinians were forced out of their homes and their lands by Israel in 1948 and 1949 (and another 300,000 in 1967), Israel claimed that Arab leaders had told the Palestinians to leave to avoid injury in the fighting to drive out the Jews. Records of broadcasts during the period show that the exact opposite is true. The only advice Palestinians received from Arab leaders was not to abandon their homes and lands. In the 1980s a writer named Joan Peters wrote a variation-on-a-theme book, From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict Over Palestine. Tacitly conceding (but only tacitly) that there were, after all, Palestinians in Palestine, Peters claimed that large numbers of them had arrived only during the British Mandate period (1918-1948) to batten on the riches brought to the country by Jewish settlers. Although her book received extensive publicity and was widely reviewed in the American media, the chorus of charges that it was highly misleading and based upon selective scholarship received no attention at all except in specialized publications like this one. In the words quoted above from The New York Times, journalist Deborah Sontag describes a Jewish settler on Syria’s Golan Heights who may have to leave if Israel evacuates the area in some future deal with Syria. The description of Golan as a “sparsely populated wilderness” before Israel seized it in 1967 is misleading, to put it charitably. In fact the Golan was a well-settled farming area not far from the Syrian capital, Damascus, and had a population of 153,000, before Israeli forces occupied it in 1967 and subsequently destroyed the principal town, Kuneitra, before withdrawing. The late Israeli Gen. Moshe Dayan was recently quoted as saying that Israel grabbed the Golan because Israeli farmers wanted the land. The recurring empty lands disinformation wins top prize in any contest. The claim that Palestine was an empty land was equally false. In 1901 the population was 480,000. It is false as well that Palestinian leaders in 1948-1949 advised Palestinians to leave. To the contrary, Irish journalist Erskine Childers wrote a book based on records of radio broadcasts from the Middle East at the time in question and found that Palestinians were being urged not to leave. The assertion that Palestinians were recent arrivals in Palestine as claimed by Joan Peters is false as well. Besides, Jewish settlers in Palestine were not rich, but so desperately poor that they were constantly appealing for help from Baron Edmonde de Rothschild, of the French branch of the great Jewish banking family. Zionist/Israeli disinformation about Palestine and Palestinians is such a part of the “culture” that it has achieved cult status. Thus it is natural for a Deborah Sontag blithely to apply the “empty land” thesis to the Golan Heights. Demonstrating that the myth has nine lives, Ms. Sontag could even be the granddaughter of people not yet born in 1901 when Zangwill began the myth. The recurring empty lands disinformation wins top prize in any contest. It set the pattern for what Georgetown University emeritus Prof. Hisham Sharabi calls “a verbal paradigm” practiced by Israel and its supporters: mental compartmentalization and a refusal to employ or even listen to words that conflict with a basic theme. The case for a presidential pardon for spy-for-Israel Jonathan Jay Pollard exactly fits this definition. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Khazanovich, by your admonition to me,"remember the maxim of Goebbels and Stalin - if one repeats a lie often enough, people start to believe it. ", perhaps you were referring to the lies in this article? http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0999/9909043.html Excerpt: Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, September 1999, pages 43-44 Special Report Israel’s Cult of Disinformation and the Complications of Basing a Policy Upon a Foundation of Lies By Andrew I. Killgore “It is...hard to give up a home and a life built from scratch in a sparsely populated wilderness....”—Deborah Sontag, New York Times, April 14, 1999 “The art of telling a sustained lie requires a great deal of daily practice.” —Fyodor Dostoevsky The slogan of the Zionist movement was “the land without people—for the people without land.” Written a hundred years ago (1901) by Israel Zangwill, it pretended Palestine had no people. It was promoted so credibly that some Jewish immigrants to Palestine were astonished when they first encountered the Palestinians already living there. After 750,000 Palestinians were forced out of their homes and their lands by Israel in 1948 and 1949 (and another 300,000 in 1967), Israel claimed that Arab leaders had told the Palestinians to leave to avoid injury in the fighting to drive out the Jews. Records of broadcasts during the period show that the exact opposite is true. The only advice Palestinians received from Arab leaders was not to abandon their homes and lands. In the 1980s a writer named Joan Peters wrote a variation-on-a-theme book, From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict Over Palestine. Tacitly conceding (but only tacitly) that there were, after all, Palestinians in Palestine, Peters claimed that large numbers of them had arrived only during the British Mandate period (1918-1948) to batten on the riches brought to the country by Jewish settlers. Although her book received extensive publicity and was widely reviewed in the American media, the chorus of charges that it was highly misleading and based upon selective scholarship received no attention at all except in specialized publications like this one. In the words quoted above from The New York Times, journalist Deborah Sontag describes a Jewish settler on Syria’s Golan Heights who may have to leave if Israel evacuates the area in some future deal with Syria. The description of Golan as a “sparsely populated wilderness” before Israel seized it in 1967 is misleading, to put it charitably. In fact the Golan was a well-settled farming area not far from the Syrian capital, Damascus, and had a population of 153,000, before Israeli forces occupied it in 1967 and subsequently destroyed the principal town, Kuneitra, before withdrawing. The late Israeli Gen. Moshe Dayan was recently quoted as saying that Israel grabbed the Golan because Israeli farmers wanted the land. The recurring empty lands disinformation wins top prize in any contest. The claim that Palestine was an empty land was equally false. In 1901 the population was 480,000. It is false as well that Palestinian leaders in 1948-1949 advised Palestinians to leave. To the contrary, Irish journalist Erskine Childers wrote a book based on records of radio broadcasts from the Middle East at the time in question and found that Palestinians were being urged not to leave. The assertion that Palestinians were recent arrivals in Palestine as claimed by Joan Peters is false as well. Besides, Jewish settlers in Palestine were not rich, but so desperately poor that they were constantly appealing for help from Baron Edmonde de Rothschild, of the French branch of the great Jewish banking family. Zionist/Israeli disinformation about Palestine and Palestinians is such a part of the “culture” that it has achieved cult status. Thus it is natural for a Deborah Sontag blithely to apply the “empty land” thesis to the Golan Heights. Demonstrating that the myth has nine lives, Ms. Sontag could even be the granddaughter of people not yet born in 1901 when Zangwill began the myth. The recurring empty lands disinformation wins top prize in any contest. It set the pattern for what Georgetown University emeritus Prof. Hisham Sharabi calls “a verbal paradigm” practiced by Israel and its supporters: mental compartmentalization and a refusal to employ or even listen to words that conflict with a basic theme. The case for a presidential pardon for spy-for-Israel Jonathan Jay Pollard exactly fits this definition. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 blackie, Judging by your posts here you seem incapable of any intelligent, civil discourse. Your repeated false charges of anti-Semitism are revealed as stupid lies as anyone who reads this venue can see. Just type my name into the search box and you too will see that not once have posted anything that comes close to anti-Semitism. I am anti-murder and anti-apartheid, and anti discriminatory and I am against land theft by Zionists. That is not anti-Semitism. It is pro-justice. Zionists are unjust, and you are either too stupid to see that fact, or you are a sociopath who lacks empathy and a moral compass. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Zuesse I select my sources to contradict lies and myths and to expose the hypocracy of those, like you who claim righteousness while championing death and destruction on innocent, helpless persecuted people. I've not doctored ONE quote. I assume you are referring to these or similar quote of Zionist leaders. There is an abundance of such hateful comments: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2003/02/11/15727361.php Note the sources. Mr. Zuesse, I challenge you to find fault with just ONE of the facts that I have presented here (other than than spelling errors, for which I apologize. The misspelling of Judaism is apparently a common mistake: http://www.megaessays.com/essay_search/Believers_Judahism.html I meant no disrespect by my ignorance in spelling. Thank you for correcting me. In this venue I have mentioned the good in Judaism, and the respchallenge to Israel's government inhumane policies.and ect, even love I have for the good Jewish people. But you have taken the lies of the Israeli propagandists, and conflated antiSemitism with challenge of Israel's inhumane and murderous policies. and falsely accused me, the bearer of truths and words that defy the myths that you want desperately to believe. Israel is a violent state that was founded on blood of innocent people who resented the intrusion of newcomers claiming rights to the land based on nonsense. As David Ben Gurion said: “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” raichle David Ben-Gurion quote “We must expel the Arabs and take their places.” NOTHING can justify this illegal behavior. Nothing. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 About justice: If you know the truth but don't speak that truth, you sacrifice your very soul. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I respectfully disagree, Cheryl. What do you know of the Nag Hammadi codexes, or of Sufism and teachings of the ascetics. Who was Athenasius of Alexandrea? What was his significance in Christiandom? How does non-locality and Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal relate to Eastern Religions? You know nothing about my spirituality. By your posts and others posts here, I know that you are limited by your religious beliefs that make you oblivious to justice. Doesn't the suffering of innocent "others", those outside your religious clique, tweak your conscience as they suffer by your support of their torturers and abusers? Every exploding Israeli artillery shell or helicopter bomb that destroys a family or maims a child has your blessing, as Israel continues to murder people for their land. It is total fiction that Jews alone have a right to what is now Israel. Any claim otherwise defys historical fact and logic. Zionists have hijacked the Jewish Faith and convinced otherwise good people to support injustices and international CRIMES for their own power and expansionist goals. Guess what! the Jewish Holocaust, as terrible as it was, was not the defining event of World War II. Ten times as many people other than Jews died in the war. 5 million "others" also died in the Nazi camps. And some of those others are also persecuted more than Jews today: http://omg.yahoo.com/news/madonna-booed-in-bucharest-for-defending-gypsies/26947?nc There is no excuse for the continuing cleansing of Palestine of it's original people. Also, another poster here alludes to Israel's prosperity. Israel prospers because it steals resources and dumps toxic industrial wastes without regard for environmental concerns and related costs: http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=46858 Israel also gets 4 billion dollars from US taxpayers and untold millions or billions from private donars including US churches. Israel's military and weapons are also supported by our military complex, as Israel is resupplied at cost or for free, new weapons developed in the US for trials on Palestinians: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11770 Israel, a belligerant military non-democracy is the World's 4th largest weapons exporter. The blood money from arms trading gives a great boost to the affluence of citizens of Tel Aviv. http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htproc/20071214.aspx While you proudly proclaim "upscale" living standards in Israel, you ignore all of the real damage to real people that contributes to the luxurious lives of these "upscale" hypocrites who piously proclaim their Jewish faith. And you have the audacity to challenge my spiritual well-being!! 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Shuster, "Fellows: Discussing with reasonable people is very worthwhile, but engaging Kamerad Evans on topics of “Israeli apartheit”, “cruel occupation” , “genocidal massacres”, “unjustified evictions and demolitions of Arab homes” or anything that has to do with “Israeli perfidy” is an exercise in futility. Like spitting into the wind, it is a silly pursuit. Ignore him, and maybe he’ll go away to peddle his wares elsewhere. " Instead of unjustified attacks on the veracity of what I post, perhaps you would care to offer credible argument to contradict what I assume this venue is about - free and open polite discussion. Let's begin with the topics that you mention. Using facts, evidence and logic, show me and others where I have posted any untruths or mistakes regarding "Israeli apartheit”, “cruel occupation” , “genocidal massacres”, “unjustified evictions and demolitions of Arab homes” 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Cheryl, you stated. "I think it’s natural for people to resent the intrusion of “the other”, but reasonable people get over it." I doubt that you would get over the abuses and humiliation that Palestinians suffer under Israeli's brutal military occupation. Would you just "get over" an army bulldozer destroying your home and forcing you to live with relatives or in a tent? Would you "get over daily harrassment at road checkpoints, or being strip serched so that you could visit relatives at a family gathering? http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/easiesttargets.html or would you just "get over it" if your children were shelled and critically burned with white phosphorous? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/jan/19/gaza-phosphorus-victim Palestinians have every right under international law to resist the illegal occupation of Israel! Until Israel quits abusing innocent people and driving them from their lands (which Israel has done for more than 61 years now) there will be no peace. Please watch this interview with British writer Jonathan Cook, author of Blood and Religion: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-973170929151170880 The Palestinians are set up so that no matter what they do they can't win. If they protest peacefully they get no media attention. If they protest and resist abuse violently, they are get media attention but are labeled as violent. aggressive bad people. And Israel continues abusing them and stealing their land using the lie of "reclaiming the land", when it was never theirs alone to begin with. As for Alan Kazanovich's remark about Israel "leaving" Gaza, he is speaking out of ignorance. Gaza was never 'left" free of Israeli presence. The guards just moved to the prison walls, literally. For conditions in Gaza sin Israeli settlements were abandoned: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/gazag.html ...and these conditions have deteriorated drastically since Dec 2008 when Israel went on a 22 day killing spree and choked Gaza even harder. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Thoroughly disgusted, Thank you for your crystal clear , succinct and spot-on assessment of the situation. If I had phrased this argument as well as you have, it would have saved me pages or typing. Your comment about US expansionism is another subject that is shrouded in myths and lies that few of us see through, In fact, US hegemony and Israeli dominance are one. And this is why our buildings got flown into. There is no "clash of cultures" in any meaningful sense, only dominance and resentment. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 And for another reality check of how well taken care of some here say Palestinians are under Israeli rule (Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2006, we are told, and Gaza is now an unoccupied free state!): http://vimeo.com/6075842 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Cheryl, of course there were Jews in the Middle East 4000 years ago, just as there were many other clans, tribes and cultures. For a brief history of Palestinian civilization: "“The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David’s conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule.” Illene Beatty, “Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan.” More on Canaanite civilization “Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined...Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE.” The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998. How long has Palestine been a specifically Arab country? “Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics — including its name in Arabic, Filastin — became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314.” Edward Said, “The Question of Palestine.” http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html#early Little of this fact fits with the common myths Zionists express, and it is difficult for some to abandon long-held myths for factual truth based on evidence. Check out these additional truths: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP91gA&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQXecLyureE&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jOFXL62zw0&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c&feature=related 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Your claim that Jews will never be Americans is untrue. Millions of Jewish people live in the US and enjoy the same rights and privileges as all other American citizens. Unlike in Israel where there is atate-sanctioned apartheid and rights granted Jews, but denied Palestinian Israeli citizens: "While equal according to Israeli law, a number of official sources acknowledge that Arab citizens of Israel experience systematic discrimination in many aspects of life. Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or chaired the Or Commission, which noted that discrimination against the country's Arab citizens had been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, had been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and had also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert criticised in 2008 what he called "deliberate and insufferable" discrimination against Arabs at the hands of the Israeli establishment[30]. The International Court of Justice stated that the fundamental rights of the Palestinian population of the occupied territories are guaranteed by the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and that Israel could not deny them on the grounds of security.[31] According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done "little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens."[32] Amnesty International has reported that in the West Bank, Jewish settlers and Israeli soldiers who engage in abuses against Palestinians, including unlawful killings, enjoy "impunity" from punishment and are rarely prosecuted. However Palestinians detained by Israeli security forces may be imprisoned for prolonged periods of time, and reports of their torture and other ill-treatment are not credibly investigated." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy No one here will admit that Jews, even though they migrated en masse to Palestine during the Mandate Perion, were still a minority of the population. Palestinians in far greater numbers were moved out of the way as they resisted this massive intrusion into their lands by foreigners. Contrary to the lie, "An empty land" that was being taken over, hundreds of towns and villages with commerce and advanced agraculture were in place and thriving before 1948. Palestinians naturally resisted the Jewish onslaught but they were no match for the well-armed Israelis. And Israel is still stealing Palestinian's lands and moving them out of the way. THAT is what all of the violence is about. It has nothing to do with ancient rivalries (Jews, Muslims, Druse and others lived in harmony for most of the 2000 year period since late Biblical times. Please consider this list of recent Israeli acts against Palestinians: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpw-h6WY8As And Zionist supporters continue to insist on blaming the victims. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 The course that Zionist-supporters here are sailing will only lead to more unnecessary death and destruction and hatred of opposing peoples. It is time that this nightmare for all involved comes to an end. The old ways have clearly failed all of us. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Evan Zeusse, As I've stated before here, I am no anti-Semite. I have great love for the traditionas and the good of Judahism. Judahism brought the World the realization of our ONE God. Type my name into the search box at the top of this page and you will not find one statement by me that is anti-Semitic. While the “Two-State Solution” is on a most Middle-East peacemaker’s agenda. there is convincing argument that this proposal can’t work; that settlement issues and boundaries, land swaps and deep-seated resentment and animosity because of gross inequality will always foment violence at borders. This is a good read about the inevitable alternative to the current dominant proposal: http://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Zionism-Creating-Democratic-Palestine/dp/0745325696 Review: Kovel deepens the debate over Zionism. He writes powerfully, from a position fully cognizant and respectful of the highest ethical standards in Jewish tradition. He shows, more effectively than any other writer I know, the utter groundlessness of the the accusation that those who reject Zionism are thereby “antisemitic.” He demonstrates that the Zionist project has been from its outset a colonial one, and thus an aberration from traditions of respect for human rights (including those of Judaism itself). It is important to note that when Kovel speaks of “overcoming” Zionism, he is not thinking of its being vanquished militarily; he is speaking of transcending it. His prose speaks to what is noblest in all of us. Transcending an agenda like that of Zionism means bringing about reconciliation: in this case overcoming not only the political conflict between two peoples claiming the same land, but also the differences within the Jewish community which, especially in the United States, have made the full and open airing of these underlying issues almost taboo. While the “Two-State Solution” is on a most Middle-East peacemaker’s agenda. there is convincing argument that this proposal can’t work; that settlement issues and boundaries, land swaps and deep-seated resentment and animosity because of gross inequality will always foment violence at borders. This is a good read about the inevitable alternative to the current dominant proposal: http://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Zionism-Creating-Democratic-Palestine/dp/0745325696 Review: Kovel deepens the debate over Zionism. He writes powerfully, from a position fully cognizant and respectful of the highest ethical standards in Jewish tradition. He shows, more effectively than any other writer I know, the utter groundlessness of the the accusation that those who reject Zionism are thereby “antisemitic.” He demonstrates that the Zionist project has been from its outset a colonial one, and thus an aberration from traditions of respect for human rights (including those of Judaism itself). It is important to note that when Kovel speaks of “overcoming” Zionism, he is not thinking of its being vanquished militarily; he is speaking of transcending it. His prose speaks to what is noblest in all of us. Transcending an agenda like that of Zionism means bringing about reconciliation: in this case overcoming not only the political conflict between two peoples claiming the same land, but also the differences within the Jewish community which, especially in the United States, have made the full and open airing of these underlying issues almost taboo. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 While the "Two-State Solution" is on a most Middle-East peacemaker's agenda. there is convincing argument that this proposal can't work; that settlement issues and boundaries, land swaps and deep-seated resentment and animosity because of gross inequality will always foment violence at borders. This is a good read about the inevitable alternative to the current dominant proposal: http://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Zionism-Creating-Democratic-Palestine/dp/0745325696 Review: Kovel deepens the debate over Zionism. He writes powerfully, from a position fully cognizant and respectful of the highest ethical standards in Jewish tradition. He shows, more effectively than any other writer I know, the utter groundlessness of the the accusation that those who reject Zionism are thereby "antisemitic." He demonstrates that the Zionist project has been from its outset a colonial one, and thus an aberration from traditions of respect for human rights (including those of Judaism itself). It is important to note that when Kovel speaks of "overcoming" Zionism, he is not thinking of its being vanquished militarily; he is speaking of transcending it. His prose speaks to what is noblest in all of us. Transcending an agenda like that of Zionism means bringing about reconciliation: in this case overcoming not only the political conflict between two peoples claiming the same land, but also the differences within the Jewish community which, especially in the United States, have made the full and open airing of these underlying issues almost taboo. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Alawil, I care not what may or may not impress you. What you post here regarding Palestinian's is either posted out of ignorance or what you post is purposeful lies. Palestinians were driven from their homes en masse' when Israel was created. Many old Palestinians still hold keys to their former abandoned and destroyed homes in what was Palestine. Whether or not these people were granted statehood by an occupying power ( as during the Mandate Period) is irrelevant. The majority of those displaced and dispossessed by armed Israeli forces had roots to the land that date scores, even hundreds of years. JEWS WERE THE MINORITY in the land when Israel was created by Western powers. It is also a lie that Palestinians have been mistreated by their Arab brethren, as millions still live in exile and are supported by governments and people in states surrounding Israel. The pressure of all of these refugees on economies and cultures has led to some understandable resentment and strife, but it was not the choice of the refugees to impose on their brothers. They were forced into exile from Palestine by Israelis. Besides, your point is, what? That Palestinians have a difficult time in Arab countries, so it's ok for Jews to beat them up also? Israel HAS NOT offered any kind of acceptable offer to the Palestinians: The Myth of the Generous Offer: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113 and see this map of what Palestinians were to have lived with, had they accepted: http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/israels-generous-offer/ See myth #5 here: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article865.shtml Also see: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html And: To Whom Does the Land Belong? http://www.mediamonitors.net/williamson1.html Mr. Alawil, you may want to consider that the goals of Israeli Zionists include a "Final Solution" of their own regarding Palestinians. While the numbers are not as dire, the goal is the same; to ethnically cleanse the land of all Palestinians as they are starved, bombed, imprisoned and moved out of the way. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Subject: Monitoring Israeli Colonization Activities On January 20, 2009, the Israeli Occupation Army handed ten Palestinian local residents from Battier village west of Bethlehem Governorate demolition orders to their houses under the pretext of lacking building permits. In a field work conducted by the Applied Research Institute Jerusalem – ARIJ, ten families received eight demolition orders to their house in addition to another two demolition orders for a Gas Station and a horse stable. Legal & International Status Israel is acting on the ground to apply a long-term plan to strangulate the Palestinian villages and communities and to interrupt their geographical contiguity in order to cut them from each other, to prevent the Palestinian people from living and building on their own lands, and eventually to squeeze them out of their villages into the main cities. The Israeli demolition of the Palestinian houses is a grave breach of many of the International Agreements and Conventions such as: • Article 53 of the Fourth Geneva Convention provides that 'any destruction by the Occupying power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or other public authorities or social or cooperative organizations is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations.' • Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention also indicated that: Extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly. is a grave breach of the Convention. • Moreover, Art. 23 of the Hague Convention of 1907 also provides: In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden to destroy or seize the enemy's property, unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war. • And Under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights adopted and proclaimed by General Assembly resolution 217 A (III) of, December 10, 1948, Article 17 reads: 'No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.' Which means it bans Israel from destroying or confiscating the property of the Palestinians at any case. • http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=1782 Palestine in a Century • The final status negotiations, which were supposed to commence in May 1996 and end by 1999, were officially started in early September 1999. In the meantime, the Israeli government has not stopped its unilateral practices in the West Bank and Gaza strip by which it created de facto realities on the ground. These de facto realities are clearly prejudicing the outcome of negotiations on the final status of the Occupied Territories to Israel's favor. Such activities are in total violation of United Nations' resolutions, particularly 298 and 242, as well as standing Palestinian-Israeli agreements. • • In the summer of 1996, there was a change of government in Israel and Benjamin Netanyahu, the Likud party leader, rose to power. His agenda concerning the occupied territories diverged from that of his predecessors and the peace process plunged into a series of crises. Not only that but there was also an upsurge in the colonizing activities to the extent that Israeli officials publicly called upon the colonists to grab as many hilltops as they can. That land grab policy resulted in the establishment of over 40 outposts during the three years that Likud held power • http://www.poica.org/pal-in-a-century/pal-in-century.php 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Babylon in the Book of Revelation By John L. Bray In the book of Revelation, the city of Jerusalem is likened to Sodom, Egypt, and Babylon. These names are metaphors, and these are called "THAT GREAT CITY.” Revelation 11:8 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the• street of THE GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." The above verse identifies THE GREAT CITY as JERUSALEM, "where also our Lord. was crucified. " "Babylon" is also a name which denotes "THAT GREAT CITY (Revelation 14:8): "…Babylon…that great city." There are not two (or three) "great cities" in the book of Revelation; they are one and the same. Babylon was "drunken with the blood of the SAINTS, and with the blood of the MARTYRS of Jesus." (Rev. 17:6). It was Jerusalem which had killed the prophets Matthew 23:34-36: (Jesus speaking) "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes; and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city. "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar . . "Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation." It was old Jerusalem that was guilty of the killing the holy apostles and prophets (Rev. 18:20 and brought upon herself the judgment of God. So this GREAT CITY, named Sodom, Egypt and Babylon, was Jerusalem "where also our Lord was crucified." The book of Revelation is about two women--¬Babylon/Jerusalem the whore (Rev. 17:5), and the bride of Christ (Rev. 21:9). It is also about two cities-Babylon/old Jerusalem, and the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2). This woman, called "BABYLON" (Rev. 17:1-7) sat upon and rode the Beast (Jerusalem depended upon Rome. (Rev. 17:3,7). Verse 10 tells us that the seven heads of the Beast (Rome) were seven kings, and it said "one is," which one was Nero at that time. These kings were the ones who were the different emperors or kings who had ruled over the Roman Empire. The ten horns represented the subservient nations under Rome's authority (these nations helped Rome's armies destroy Israel). Babylon/Jerusalem was "burned with fire" (Rev, 18:8). Babylon/Jerusalem was "THAT GREAT ClTY .... in one hour is she made desolate." (Rev. 18:19). Jesus had predicted this (see Matthew 23:38): "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. " With these passages from Revelation (and others in the book mentioning “THAT GREAT CITY)" how can any Bible interpreter get anything out of this except that Babylon, THAT GREAT CITY, is none other than Jerusalem, the great city "where also our Lord was crucified," and not some futuristic prophecy to be fulfilled in our day and time. (Rev. 11:8)? These passages, when I first paid attention to them some number of years ago , led me to understand that Revelation was written before A D. 70, before Jerusalem was destroyed. And that the things written in this book centered around God's judgments against the land of Israel and especially the city of Jerusalem. And that Nero was the Beast of Revelation 13, persecuting the Christians for 3-1/2 years (Rev. 13:5- A.D. 64-¬68). And that the things written in this book were all to occur soon, during the generation of those early Christians. Matthew 24:34: (Jesus speaking) "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." See especially Rev. 1:1,3 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must SHORTLY COME TO PASS." (Verse 1) " FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND." (Verse 3). This time feature is noticed also at the end of the book of Revelation ("For the time is at hand." Revelation 22:10). John was told to write this book and to send it to the seven churches of Asia (Rev. 1:11). The book of Revelation was written to those people who read the book in John's day, and about things soon to happen ("shortly") as he said, and not about things to happen 2,000 or so years later. Evangelist John L. Bray P.O. Box 90129 Lakeland, FL 33804 (863) 858-6625 Copied from Rev. Bray’s July 15, 2009 Newsletter by Doug Willbanks with only minor grammatical corrections. Conclusion: armegeddin already happened in 70 AD with the desrtuction of the Temple and the 2nd Diaspora. This fulfilled 2 Chronicles, 7: 19 - 22 Jews no longer, according to canon of Scripture, no longer have rights to the lands that were part of their Covenant. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Suggested reading: The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, by Ilan Pappe. Review: Focusing primarily on Plan D (Dalet, in Hebrew), conceived on March 10, 1948, Pappe demonstrates how ethnic cleansing was not a circumstance of war, but rather a deliberate goal of combat for early Israeli military units led by David Ben-Gurion, whom Pappe labels the "architect of ethnic cleansing." The forced expulsion of 800,000 Palestinians between 1948-49, Pappe argues, was part of a long-standing Zionist plan to manufacture an ethnically pure Jewish state. Framing his argument with accepted international and UN definitions of ethnic cleansing, Pappe follows with an excruciatingly detailed account of Israeli military involvement in the demolition and depopulation of hundreds of villages, and the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Arab inhabitants. An accessible, learned resource, this volume provides important inroads into the historical antecedents of today's conflict, but its conclusions will not be easy for everyone to stomach: Pappe argues that the ethnic cleansing of Palestine continues today, and calls for the unconditional return of all Palestinian refugees and an end to the Israeli occupation. Without question, Pappe's account will provoke ire from many readers; importantly, it will spark discussion as well. http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 " ...you’re like Obama without a teleprompter." Why, thank you, Cheryl. That compliment made my day. :-) 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Full article: Palestinians denied housing as Israeli settlements expand at will Jason Koutsoukis Herald Correspondent in Jerusalem July 18, 2009 TO MEN like Moshe "Boogie" Ya'alon, a former chief-of-staff of the Israel Defence Forces and now Vice-Prime Minister, even the name West Bank is a misnomer. To him, the land on the west bank of the Jordan River, wedged between Israel and Jordan is, and always will be, Judea and Samaria, an integral part of the ancient land of Israel and not a future Palestinian state. As for the issue of Jewish settlements, Mr Ya'alon dismisses this with a wave of his hand. "The settlements are not now, never have been and never will be an obstacle to peace," he told a private forum in Jerusalem recently. International demands led by the US President, Barack Obama, that Israel freeze all settlement construction on the West Bank are an affront to most people on the political right in Israel. But the demand for an end to the "natural growth" expansion of the settlements has upset left and right. A recent poll in The Jerusalem Post found that 69 per cent of Israelis oppose freezing "natural growth" construction, and only 6 per cent of Israelis now believe the Obama Administration is pro-Israel, while 50 per cent believe it is pro-Palestinian. Recently it was leaked that the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, refers to Mr Obama's two most important aides - Rahm Emanuel and David Axelrod - as "self-hating Jews". Mr Netanyahu told the German Foreign Minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, that attempts to remove settlements from the West Bank amounted to "Judenrein" - the term used by the Nazis to refer to areas "cleansed of Jews". Sarit Mitchell, of B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Centre for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, said the idea of "natural growth" has always been a figleaf to cover large-scale expansion of settlements. Last year, Israel's overall population grew by 1.8 per cent - 1.6 per cent among Israeli Jews. Yet in the same year, the settlement population grew by 5.6 per cent, and 40 per cent of new residents were Jewish immigrants. Since Israel accepted the then US president George Bush's 2003 "road map", which mandated a freeze on all settlement activity, the settler population in the West Bank has swollen from 211,400 to 289,600 - an increase of 37 per cent in six years, far outstripping any natural population growth. At the same time, Israeli planning law discriminates against Palestinians who want to expand their own towns and villages in the West Bank, on land that is supposed to be part of their future homeland. "On this issue, yes, I would say we have an apartheid system," said Alon Cohen-Lifshitz, a planning expert and co-author of a 170-page report titled The Prohibited Zone, which documents Israeli planning policy in the West Bank. The report, published last month by the Israeli human rights group Bimkom - Planners for Planning Rights, makes clear that for the 150,000 Palestinians who live in the part of the West Bank known in the Oslo accords as Area C - 60 per cent of the total territory that comes under Israel's direct control - Israeli policies practically prevent any new Palestinian construction. "We have a system that deliberately allows Jewish settlers to expand West Bank settlements virtually at will, while for the 150 Palestinian villages and communities in Area C, applications to build are mostly rejected," Mr Cohen-Lifshitz said. "On average, 13 building permits are granted each year for Palestinians." So Palestinians build without permission, and risk having their houses demolished by the Israeli Civil Administration. From the beginning of 2000 to September 2007, the Israeli Civil Administration issued demolition orders for 4820 buildings established by Palestinians in Area C. Actual homes demolished amounted to 1626 buildings — 240 a year. As Mr Cohn-Lifshitz's report notes, these statistics mask the painful stories of families left without a roof over their heads. Other serious consequences include residential congestion, "for example, when a family expands but is not permitted to enlarge its home. In many other cases young couples are forced to leave their village and move to other Palestinian communities in Areas A and B [of the West Bank]," the report says. That sounds a lot like the arguments being mounted by those Israelis pleading for the continuation of "natural growth" in their West Bank settlements. "It's one law for the Jews, and a totally separate law for Palestinians," Mr Cohen-Lifshitz said. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I have no problem with anyone of any cultural, ethnic or religious affiliation moving or building anywhere as long as it's not on stolen land. But Israel denies this right to Palestinians who have lived there for generations as it allows new Jewish settlements to fill up with immigrant people with no prior connection to the land: "It's one law for the Jews, and a totally separate law for Palestinians," Mr Cohen-Lifshitz said. http://www.smh.com.au/world/palestinians-denied-housing-as-israeli-settlements-expand-at-will-20090717-do9q.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mark Anthony, You left this scriptur out: 2 Chronicles 7:19-22 (King James Version) 19But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them; 20Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations. 21And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house? 22And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them. The second Diapora was a result of "God's Chosen" once again turning their backs and ignoring The Covenant and Law. There was never a third chance given by God. Read the works of Thomas Williamson: God's Land Grant to the Jewish People - Conditional or Unconditional? http://www.thomaswilliamson.net/God's Land.htm Would God condone this? http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/07/07/52695.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 You've proved nothing here,Evan Zuesse, least of all my charges of dispossession of Palestinians by Israe: Read: A Historical Survey of Proposals to Transfer Arabs from Palestine 1895 - 1947 Abstract: http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/art.php?aid=530 Check out the words of famous Zionists: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story694.html On July 12, 1937, Ben-Gurion wrote in his diary explaining the benefits of the compulsory population transfer (which was proposed in British Peel Commission): "The compulsory transfer of the [Palestinian] Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had, even when we stood on our own during the days of the first and second Temples. . . We are given an opportunity which we never dared to dream of in our wildest imaginings. This is MORE than a state, government and sovereignty----this is national consolidation in a free homeland." (Righteous Victims, p. 142) Similarly on August 7, 1937 he also stated to the Zionist Assembly during their debate of the Peel Commission: ". . . In many parts of the country new settlement will not be possible without transferring the [Palestinian] Arab fellahin. . . it is important that this plan comes from the [British Peel] Commission and not from us. . . . Jewish power, which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out the transfer on a large scale. You must remember, that this system embodies an important humane and Zionist idea, to transfer parts of a people to their country and to settle empty lands. We believe that this action will also bring us closer to an agreement with the Arabs." (Righteous Victims, p. 143) On the same subject, Ben-Gurion wrote in 1937: "With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement] .... I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it." (Righteous Victims, p. 144) And in 1938, he also wrote: "With compulsory transfer we [would] have vast areas .... I support compulsory [population] transfer. I do not see anything immoral in it. But compulsory transfer could only be carried out by England .... Had its implementation been dependent merely on our proposal I would have proposed; but this would be dangerous to propose when the British government has disassociated itself from compulsory transfer. .... But this question should not be removed from the agenda because it is central question. There are two issues here : 1) sovereignty and 2) the removal of a certain number of Arabs, and we must insist on both of them." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, 117) On July 30, 1937 Yosef Bankover, a founding member and leader of Kibbutz Hameuhad movement and a member of Haganah's regional command of the coastal and central districts, stated that Ben-Gurion would accept the proposed Peel Commission partition plan under two conditions: 1) unlimited Jewish immigration 2) Compulsory population transfer for Palestinians. He stated that : "Ben-Gurion said yesterday that he was prepared to accept the [Peel partition] proposal of the Royal commission but on two conditions: [Jewish] sovereignty and compulsory transfer ..... As for the compulsory transfer-- as a member of Kibbutz Ramat Hakovsh [founded in 1932 in central Palestine] I would be very pleased if it would be possible to be rid of the pleasant neighborliness of the people of Miski, Tirah, and Qalqilyah." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 70) 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Zeusse, I don't recall shooting myself in the foot even once, let alone having a tendency to do so. But then I realize that to win unwinnable argument based on lies and misinformation and half-truths and propaganda, as Israel is forced to do, necessitates false charges against the bearer of truths. "That was the sticking point. It wasn’t Jerusalem. It wasn’t borders. It was the right of return.” Bingo! No final map was drawn that delineated borders of Israel/Palestine because there was no agreement on ANYTHING. (by the way, Israel is the only modern state with undeclared borders as Israel intends to continue expanding onto stolen Arab lands.) The maps I've posted here, were indeed, proposals, but this proposal by Israel was totally unacceptable. Palestine would have been riddled with Israeli settlements connected by Jewish-only highways, patrolled and checkpointed with Israeli troops who would have shot armed Palestinian forces on sight (Palestinians were to be disarmed in their own country). Air travel by Palestinian airlines and private planes would have been forbidden, and Palestinian fisheries would have been regulated and controlled by Israel. All goods coming into and out of Israel would have been monitored by Israel Some free and soverign state THAT would have been for the Palestinians! As for the right of refugees to return, if I go on a camping trip, I expect to be able to return to my home when I tire of camping. If I go shopping I expect to be able to return home from shopping. Anyone who is displaced by war, under international law, has the right to return to their homes after they've fled them during armed conflict. Read UN 194, and also read the 4th Geneva Convention regarding treatment of civilian populations and the illegality of collective punishment of a population. Israel has been operating outside the bounds of international law for more than 61 years now. THAT is why it continues to get UN condemnation. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 "One of the most outlandish claims made of the so-called generous offer, is that Israel was prepared to cede East Jerusalem to the Palestinians. As this has long been a Palestinian demand, this appears to back up the “generous offer” claims. In reality, the Israeli position at Camp David did not suggest ceding control of the area of annexed East Jerusalem. The Palestinians would be given sovereignty over the Christian and Muslim quarters of the old city and certain other Arab neighbourhoods. The extensively enlarged municipal limits as claimed by Israel in it’s 1980 annexation, would appear to have remained under Israeli control, and Israel had no intention of removing any of the illegal 200,000 Israeli settlers in East Jerusalem. In effect, East Jerusalem would remain significantly Israeli. This map shows the fiction of a Palestinian East Jerusalem under Baraks "generous offer". Barak’s position was that Israel would keep the major settlement blocks in the West Bank, but there would be an exchange of land. And the generous part is that the land exchange would be at a roughly 9:1 ratio. That is, for each 9 dunams of land Israel proposed to keep in the West Bank, it would give the Palestinians 1 dunam in Israel. And that land area in Israel was almost certain to be the so-called ‘triangle’, an area of land on the West Bank border that has the highest concentrations of Palestinian-Israelis inside Israel. It was long been an aspiration to rid Israel of this particular ‘demographic threat’. The myth goes that Israel offered 96% of the West Bank to Arafat. Leaving aside the fact that justice isn’t simple arithmetic, the claim itself is false. The areas of East Jersulam that Israel wanted to keep are simply left out of this calculation- they were not negotiable. What ever percentage figure one chooses to refer to, is the area Israel was prepared to negotiate over, which doesn’t include those parts that Israel had already decided belonged to it. Another frequently referred to text in the “generous offer” myth is Dennis Ross’s book ‘The Missing Peace’. His book and frequent articles have lent credence to the idea that Israelis made an offer and it was generous. It’s best described as 800 pages of self-congratulation. Ross’s contention is based on a time limited perspective. The “generous offer” myth is based on the reality that Barak went further than any other Israeli in negotiations with the Palestinians. But this says far more about the reluctance of his predecessors, than about Baraks fabled generosity. And it is the subsequent Taba talks, 6 months later, that further expose Ross and the whole “generous offer” myth. In Taba, Israel moved closer to what Palestinians saw as the minimum acceptable offer. Israel dropped its demand for control of the Jordan valley and control of all external borders and accepted greater Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem. These facts show that while Barak had gone further at Camp David than any previous Israeli leader, it was completely false to contend that; he “had left no stone unturned” as was repeatedly claimed, and that the vague proposals were anything approaching “generous”. Indeed, the subsequent developements at Taba show that Arafat, while suffering his own serious negotiating flaws, would have made a grave error if he were to have accepted Baraks "offer " at Camp David. The idea of generosity in this context is turned completely on its head; Israel was not giving to the Palestinians from itself, but was simply returning to the Palestinians what was theirs. That returning only part of what is not yours, instead of all, can be construed as generosity, tells one a great deal about the prevailing dogmas on the Israel-Palestine conflict." http://israelforumwatch.blogspot.com/2006/10/camp-david-and-generous-offer.html Generous offer map: http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/israels-generous-offer/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 It is also wrong and illegal to deny medicine and medical care to people in need: http://www.imemc.org/article/61472 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 All of you here who support the illegal acts of Israel state your case but fail to back your OPINIONs which are based on other's opinions and anecdotal "evidence". Example: The generous offer that Arafat turned down in 2000. I've given documentation including maps which clearly show the non-contiguous mess that Palestinians were offered. Juxtaposed to this, you recite old dogma and lies. Show me how the offer that was made to Arafat in 2000 was fair, maps included. Other "evidence" for your argument that Jews have exclusive right to other's land is based on a long history of Jews who had their own language and culture, living in the region that became Israel. So what! Other Palestinian Peoples, Christians, Muslims, Druse, and others ALSO have a historical connection to the land. In fact, "others" had a historical majority. So what gave Jews the right to dispossess hundreds of thousands of non-Jews and continue to dispossess non-Jews as they take it all? Before 1948 it was everybody's land. For just a partial list of UN resolutions against Israel: http://progressiveaustin.org/unscrisr.htm Again...Stealing land and occupying other's land is illegal and it is wrong. Starving innocent people by choking their borders is wrong: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/chronic-malnutrition-in-gaza-blamed-on-israel-1019521.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For those who accuse me of obtaining my information from biased sites, consider the following Jewish-based sites with a wealth of truth that contradicts the bias of Zionist propagands: http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp http://www.auphr.org/ ...this one is founded by Peter Miller, a Jewish American ...And consider the words of Jeff Halper, a Jewish resident of Tel Aviv who founded ICAHD: "Did the Palestinians really flee or did we Israeli Jews drive them out? If almost half the inhabitants of that part of Palestine apportioned by the UN to the Jews in 1947 were Arabs, how could we have turned even that small bit of land into a “Jewish state”? Is Zionism, then, truly free of war crimes or did we in fact conduct a deliberate and cruel campaign of ethnic cleansing that went far beyond the borders of partition? In that context, was the occupation of the entire land of Palestine the result of Jordanian miscalculation or, from a perspective of forty years later, was in actually an inevitable “completion” of 1948, as Rabin and many others have said? How can we reconcile our professed desire for peace with a steady annexation of the Occupied Territories, including almost 250 settlements? Can we really expect to “win,” to frustrate Palestinian aspirations for freedom in their homeland forever, and if we do, what kind of society will we have, what will our children inherit? Indeed, while we presume to speak in the name of world Jewry, can we expect our Diaspora – fundamentally liberal and not tribal as is Judaism in Israel – to support war crimes that only undermine the moral basis of their community, convictions and faith? And then comes the hardest question of all: If it was we who eliminated a viable two-state solution – the creation of a truncated Palestinian prison-state on 15% of historic Palestine a la South Africa’s Bantustans will not solve the conflict – then how will we end our century-old conflict? How will we deal with the bi-national entity that is Israel/Palestine, largely our own creation?" http://www.counterpunch.org/halper05152008.html Jeff Halper's site: http://icahd.org/eng/ I post much of my information from sites such as these. And, ironically, many Christian groups in the US support and fund Israeli atrocities against their fellow Christians in Palestine. Here is a group I've worked with in spreading the truths about Israeli misdeeds: http://www.fosna.org/ Also, please view: http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=117 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Thousands of Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israeli forces in an ongoing displacement campaign while Jewish colonies have continued to expand: "The Israeli army destroyed the homes of 18 Palestinian families and their animal pens in the nearby hamlet of Ras al-Ahmar on Thursday morning. More than 130 people, many of them children, lived in the hamlet. The soldiers also confiscated a water tank, a tractor and a trailer, which the villagers used to bring water from several kilometres away. They are not allowed access to local wells. The villagers are now without shelter and a source of water during a season of high temperatures. Many of these families have had their homes destroyed multiple times in recent years and all of them face the prospect of further displacement because the Israeli army has declared the area, and most of the Jordan Valley, a "closed military area" from which the local Palestinian population is barred. While these Palestinian communities continue to be harassed and chased off their land, nearby Israeli settlements – established in violation of international law – continue to expand. Next to Ras al-Ahmar and Hadidiya are three Israeli settlements which use vast quantities of water for their ever-expanding agricultural farms. The Hemdat settlement, established in 1997, has “nice, large buildings with red roofs” built by the Israeli Housing Ministry and Ro’i settlement boasts a swimming pool. Successive Israeli governments from across the political spectrum have all backed construction and expansion of unlawful settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT). Under the last government of Prime Minister Olmert, settlement expansion increased seven-fold, especially after the November 2007 Annapolis conference, which was supposed to restart the peace process." http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/palestinian-homes-risk-occupied-west-bank-20090608 http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/landloss.html There is no way anyone of good conscience can justify this. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 "After refusal by the Arabs to agree to the UN partition of 1947,the aggressive war waged by Arab armies against the Jewish State caused the first refugee problem." Will you people PLEASE read your own posts, so that I don't need to continue making my point that Israel invaded Palestinian lands? The UN never asked permission of Palestinian landowners if it would be ok to impose a horde of invaders on them, take over their lands and chase them all away from what were their ancestoral homes. If this had happened to you and I today, I venture to say that we, like the displaced Palestinians, would also fail to declare this a legitimate act by a legitimate state. The following is a 5 year old story. It demonstrates the ongoing abuse and displacement of Palestinians by force: Israel was accused yesterday of committing a war crime by its destruction of more than 3,000 Palestinian homes in Israel and the occupied territories since the intifada began three and a half years ago. The damning report from Amnesty International came as the Israeli army killed up to 19 Palestinians - children as well as militants - in the Rafah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip where General Moshe Ya'alon, the army chief of staff, warned at the weekend that hundreds more homes could be destroyed. Angry Palestinian women chant anti-Israeli slogans during a demonstration supporting Rafah residents, in front of United Nations headquarters in Gaza City, Tuesday May 18, 2004. Israeli helicopters pounded Rafah refugee camp with missiles and machine gun fire Tuesday, killing at least 20 Palestinians as troops searched houses in a major military offensive that drew worldwide condemnation. (AP Photo/Adel Hana) In its critique of the Israeli policy of destroying buildings and "vast areas" of agricultural land, the report challenges head-on the argument that the destruction is militarily necessary. It also warns that "punitive forced evictions and house demolitions" are a "flagrant form of collective punishment" that "violate a fundamental principle of international law". The report was published as a heavily armored Israeli force moved into the Tel Sultan district of the Rafah camp yesterday, in one of Israel's biggest incursions into Gaza. The attack followed an assault by helicopter gunships which had earlier killed seven Palestinians - at least three of them gunmen - outside a mosque. As soldiers mounted a house-to-house hunt for militants, the town's hospital was filled with 40 Palestinians wounded by missile attacks and Israeli sniper fire. The local hospital morgue became so overloaded that five bodies had to be shifted to vegetable freezers in a nearby market. Earlier, troops had fanned out under cover of darkness into the neighborhood in the early hours of the morning, seizing vantage points amid two missile attacks before dawn. With Rafah sealed off from the rest of Gaza by the army, at least 45 military vehicles moved into the camp, including tanks and armored bulldozers. At least 88 houses were destroyed in the camp last week, making more than 1,000 people homeless. Since the intifada began in September 2000, 2,806 Palestinians and 921 Israelis. Asmaa Mughayer, 15, and her brother Ahmed, 13, were shot dead yesterday as they fed pigeons on the roof of their house. Their uncle, Mahmoud Mughayer, said that they had been unaware of the extent of the incursion because with the camp's electricity supply cut off by the assault there was no television. Their elder brother, Ali, 24, had shouted at them to come down because it was dangerous. When he heard no response, he climbed the steps to find his sister and brother lying dead in a pool of blood. Mr Mughayer said: "The snipers fired at him, too. He lay on the ground, and slowly crept pulling them one after another to the third floor." He added that it had taken an ambulance five hours to arrive because of the firing. He added: "This was the biggest crime. Asmaa and Ahmed were not mujahedin. This is the largest injustice, unacceptable by humanity." Palestinian sources said that the army had destroyed four houses belonging to dead militants and taken over another four houses. They added that at dawn a helicopter spotted a number of militants near the Bilal Ben Rabah mosque and had fired a rocket, killing a militant from Hamas who was identified as Hani Qifeh. Shortly afterwards, the same helicopter fired again, killing two brothers and a third man, the sources said. Missiles also burnt a library in the mosque. Witnesses said that armored bulldozers had brought down electric cables and telephone lines. "We are afraid," said Miriam Abu Jazzar, outside her daughter's home, apparently wrecked by a missile. "Every hour there is shooting." For the entire article: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0519-01.htm 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For a brief introduction to what many of us don't know about Israel: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/trailerq.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For those who still contend that Jews have the right to displace people from their lands: http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=16285&pst=1333138 http://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/House_Demolition_5357/Article_2881.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 No matter how one tries to justify dispossession of people from their homes and their lands, it is a gross injustice. Period. If Latvian lichen-worshippers were granted a state in your country, on your land and you, your family and neighbors were driven forceably from homes which you had worked for or inherited from your forebears, wouldn't you attempt to resist this act which turned you into a refugee? Would you willingly declare the legitimacy of the newly-founded Lichen-worshipper State, a state that was built on the blood of your family? If not, then why do you condemn the Palestinians from reacting just as you would react to such an atrocity? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK7JJea3Sz8&feature=PlayList&p=AAB500D142AC9D17&index=0&playnext=1 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists’ intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years) In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people. One further point: being Jewish ourselves, the position we present here is critical of Zionism but is in no way anti-Semitic. We do not believe that the Jews acted worse than any other group might have acted in their situation. The Zionists (who were a distinct minority of the Jewish people until after WWII) had an understandable desire to establish a place where Jews could be masters of their own fate, given the bleak history of Jewish oppression. Especially as the danger to European Jewry crystalized in the late 1930’s and after, the actions of the Zionists were propelled by real desperation. But so were the actions of the Arabs. The mythic “land without people for a people without land” was already home to 700,000 Palestinians in 1919. This is the root of the problem, as we shall see. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 To understand what actually happened at Camp David, it's necessary to know that for many years the PLO has officially called for a two-state solution in which Israel would keep the 78 percent of the Palestine Mandate (as Britain's protectorate was called) that it has controlled since 1948, and a Palestinian state would be formed on the remaining 22 percent that Israel has occupied since the 1967 war (the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem). Israel would withdraw completely from those lands, return to the pre-1967 borders and a resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 would be negotiated between the two sides. Then, in exchange, the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel (PLO Declaration, 12/7/88; PLO Negotiations Department). Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01). The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump. Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank. Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military. Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Marquis, Your assertion that Israel has the right of self defense should also apply to Palestinians who were displaced from their lands by Israelis. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Zeusse, You state," But after Israel defended itself from a major Hamas cease-fire violation on November 4th, Hamas decided to up the ante and well over three hundred rockets and mortars were fired off into Israel in the next month and a half, a period that was still under the truce. These violations, too, Mr. Evans dismisses as relevant to the final Israeli response. " The point you are trying to make is illogical. Again, look at the data in this chart: http://www.themediaoasis.com/Hamasrockets.htm The cease-fire began on June 19. Dispite Isreal's continuing choking of Gaza borders (a violation of the cease-fire) rockets from Gaza dropped to almost zero. Some, if not all of those few that were being fired were fired from splinter Jihadist or private groups or individuals, some of whose members were arrested by Hamas for their actions. Related article: "But the Egyptian-brokered peace is slowly unraveling as Hamas leaders in Gaza struggle to keep militants — especially their Fatah rivals — from firing the occasional rocket at Israel. It's an awkward situation for Hamas: After years of derailing Palestinian peace talks with Israel by staging suicide bombings, Hamas is now the one asking rivals to halt their attacks on Israel." http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/43232.html As the chart clearly shows, it wasn't until Israeli troops entered Gaza on Nov 4 and killed and arrested Hamas members, another violation of the cease-fire agreement, that Hamas again resumed launching rockets at Israel. All during the cease-fire, in addition to Israel starving Palestinians and denying them electricity and parts and fuel for infrastructure by keeping borders choked, Israeli troops were shooting fishermen and farmers. Some of these incidents were documented on video. I am no anti-Semite, as I've stated here repeatedly. I challenge anyone here who has falsely accused me to show evidence that would indicate that I hate Jews or anyone else. There is no such evidence, just as there is no evidence that counters the truths based on facts and logic that I post here. I do not deny some of the illegal acts of Hamas, also. Targeting ANY innocent people cannot be condoned, and I feel great sympathy and empathy for those families in Serdot who are under rocket attack. I understand their terror, as I have been under similar rocket, mortar and artillery attack as an occupier of a people who successfully threw out their oppressors in 1975. I was a US Marine in Vietnam during the worst years of fighting there. The Palestinians didn't invite the Jewish immigrants who took over their lands. Those immigrants have been moving them out of the way since 1948. All violence in the region is attributable to that simple, irrefutable fact. Until Palestinians are allowed a soverign state, free of occupation and oppression, or until Israel becomes a true democracy with equality for all its citizens, there will be retaliatory violence from those who are oppressed. It's as simple and as just as that. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For more of the unnecessary slaughter of innocents by Israelis: http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/gaza-horror-large-photo-gallery-of-gaza-massacre-by-israel/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Evan Zuesse, First of all, do not make the charge that all criticism of Israel is anti-semite. That tired canard is baseless and is a lie. I am no anti-anything against ANY group of people. I am against injustice and Israel has for 61 years treated Palestinian innocent people unjustly by killing them and stealing their land. You are incorrect when you charge that Hamas didn't honor the cease fire agreement that was brokered by Egypt in June of 2008. Note this chart from information of IDF: http://www.themediaoasis.com/Hamasrockets.htm for video confirmation of the facts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4 "Palestinian armed groups have fired more than 4,000 rockets at Israeli territory since 2001,[12] including nearly 2,700 rockets from September 2005 through May 2007,[13] and more than 1750 rockets in 2008 alone.[14] These attacks virtually stopped during the first four months of a six-month ceasefire between Israel and Hamas that went into effect on June 19, 2008, but resumed after Israeli forces killed six Palestinian fighters during an incursion into Gaza on November 4, 2008.[15] From November 5 to the formal end of the six-month ceasefire on December 19, 2008, armed groups fired 203 rockets. From December 19 to December 26, the day before Israel began major military operations, armed groups fired 66 rockets.[16]" "From the first rocket launches from Gaza in 2001 to May 2009, rocket attacks have killed 15 civilians in Israel, according to Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs;" http://www.hrw.org/en/node/84867/section/4 So these ineffective rockets were NOT the cause of the 22 day attack which left 1400 Gaza civilians dead and 5000 seriously wounded when Israel indiscriminately bombarded entire Palestinian neighborhoods, schools and hospitals that people took shelter in (because they had no escape from the walled-in Gaza strip - your point about dropping warning leaflets is meaningless, as there was no escape from a virtual prison that was filled with 1.5 million people.): Do these photos look like Israel took precautions to avoid civilian casualties? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=gaza+white+phosphorous+photos&btnG=Google+Search&rlz=1W1RNWN_en&aq=f&oq;=&aqi;= http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/phopto-gallery-of-gazas-martyred-children/ http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200912284850930973.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/4290469/In-pictures-Gaza-City-a-scene-of-destruction-as-the-Israeli-offensive-ends.html Ineffective rockets from Gaza that rarely hit any structures let alone kill anyone arhardly, as you claim, "real massive human rights crimes" when compared to thes photo-documented crimes of Israel. For the UN january 2009 Report on Human Rights violations of Israel: http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/3822b5e39951876a85256b6e0058a478/a8a783acb5d0c6b88525753c0071f427?OpenDocument 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Please read this article. Events in the Middle East are a bit more complicated than the good-guy vs bad guy simplistic nonsense that the lies and the propaganda would have us believe: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11747 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 The situation and the facts are a bit more complicated than the simplistic comic-book world-view of some posters here would indicate. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11800 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Also...for an interesting take on status of the situation in the Middle East: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11800 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I too read synopses of your work, Mr. Weinblatt, including this comment by an admirer of Viktor Frankl, who I've admired deeply for his insight into human will. http://www.amazon.com/review/R2XI6LWF10A1AU As the recognized father of the third leg of psychology and the proponent of Will to Meaning, I think that Dr. Frankel would abhor the actions of Israel today. His experiences in the Nazi camps gave him rare insight that he put to use for humankind, while others deficient in empathy and intellect use others' suffering for their own selfish gains. Those in power in Jerusalem are such people. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 End result of the beating caught on tape in the above video: http://www.jta.org/news/article/2009/08/21/1007384/police-close-settler-beating-investigation This is typical of justice given Palestinians in the Israeli system. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I16Q0-Xjf0&feature=channel Keep in mind that Jewish settlers are required to be armed while Palestinian homeowners are forbidden to have weapons. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Yes Ron, Thes kinds of attacks by violent imported settlers happen to Palestinians daily as Israeli police and IDF soldiers guard the settlers from Palestinian reprisals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcmjR-cVu8w also see accompanying videos. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 While this article attempts to nullify charges of war crimes of Israel by questioning the credibility of reports and those reporting these crimes, video tapes and photos are evidence of massive attacks on civilian populations by the IDF: http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/gaza-horror-large-photo-gallery-of-gaza-massacre-by-israel/ There was absolutely no reason to attack the innocent people of Gaza, people who were locked into a prison yard of 7 by 26 miles with now way to escape the wrath and inhumanity of the 4th most powerful military entity on Earth. The cease-fire brokered in June 2008 held dispite Israel's continuing aggression which culminated in the Nov 4 2008 invasion into Gaza which killed and kidnapped Hamas leaders: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=SILJxPTqjAM This act was a deliberate provocation after 4 months of Israel's repeated violations of the cease-fire agreement (Israel was still tightening the chokehold at the border crossings, Israeli troops were still firing on and killing unarmed Palestinian fishermen and farmers, and Israel was still conducting home invasions and kidnappings (more than 12,000 Palestinian men, women and children are rotting in Israeli prisons without benefit of adequate legal council) . All of these ongoing actions didn't goad a Palestinian response until the Nov 4 invasion, after which rocket fire from Hamas in Gaza resumed. Then Israel launched Operation Cast Lead which had been 2 years in the planning, and slaughtered more than 1400 people, 500 of them children, and seriously wounded 5 times that many and destroyed their homes and entire neighborhoods. For one of the REAL reasons for the slaughter that had nothing to do with "hundreds of rockets being fired from Hamas" : http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11680 Also, see: http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=117 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Another of hundreds of scenes like these.....And you say, "Give me a break". (Implication being, "It's no big deal.") http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/gaza-horror-large-photo-gallery-of-gaza-massacre-by-israel/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/01/scenes_from_the_gaza_strip.html http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/phopto-gallery-of-gazas-martyred-children/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 So, your point is apparently that you think murders like those in these photos is ok, because it's all about scale? Only 6,300 Palestinians have been killed since 2000, and for every Israeli child that dies in this sensless conflict, 8 Palestinian children die? Compared to the 6 million Jewish innocent killed by Hitler, this is a small number. Tell a Palestinian family member that had their children killed, "Give me a break." http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html Palestinians have endured 41 years of brutal, illegal military ocupation and abuse by Israeli forces. The scale of death and destruction isn't the same as WWii when all of Europe was at war and many countries were left in ruin, but the affect on those who were and are brutalized is the same. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Weinblatt, I respectfully request that you read this book that may inspire you to write an equally good novel as "Jacob's Courage" about these real-life people who also suffer persecution and tragedies: http://www.ramzybaroud.net/view_book.php?id=d72a4f364f4050d0643447ac753b411b 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Also, for the truth about health care for Palestinians: 16:23 08/17/2009 Israeli Blockade Claims 344 Gaza Patients Palestinian sources say 344 patients have so far died post 22-day war against Gaza, because of a lack of medical supplies in the Gaza strip due to an Israeli siege. The last "martyr of the Israeli siege", according to Palestinian Ministry of Health, is 42 year-old Omar Ata Allah Al-Sha'er from Rafah city in the south of the Gaza Strip. With the death of Al-Sha'er, the number of Palestinians to have died because of the Israeli siege imposed on the impoverished region since June 2007 now stands at 344. The document provided by the Palestinian Ministry of Health shows that Al-Sha'er suffered from chronic kidney failure and his health deteriorated while Israeli authorities disallowed him from traveling to receive treatment abroad, although he had the necessary papers for travel. The Palestinian Ministry appealed to exercise pressure on Israel; in order to lift its siege and end the suffering of hundreds of patients who desperately need treatment in hospitals abroad. Meanwhile, a 34-page report by UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay, released Saturday, urged Tel Aviv to lift the blockade of Gaza and restrictions on the strip. Pillay harshly criticized Israel for the violations "compounded by the blockade that the population of Gaza endured in the months prior to Operation Cast Lead and which continues." Some 1,400 Palestinians, including more than 900 civilians, were killed during the Israeli war on Gaza, according to Gaza health officials and human rights groups. http://www.palestinechronicle.com/news.php?id=cadf36558d2f9a19bc9b668036eac7db&mode=details#cadf36558d2f9a19bc9b668036eac7db 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 This is the condition in Gaza: According to UNICEF, approximately 320,000 children in Gaza are under 5 years of age, including about 40,000 infants under 6 months of age. Even before the latest outbreak of violence, 50,000 Gazan children were malnourished, more than two-thirds suffered from vitamin A deficiency and almost half of children under 2 were anemic. Lack of access to food, clean water and medical supplies exacerbates threats to children's health and well-being. http://www.nowpublic.com/world/unicef-aid-gazas-children http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8YfA_DngUM The following post, "On the other hand Jews kicked out from the Arab countries did not engage in any subversion. They were peaceful citizens living there for generations (much longer than Arabs). They were victims of countless Arab pogroms, escaped with nothing, and UNLIKE ARAB refugees, they did not receive tens of Billions dollars worth of international welfare. Yet, the Jewish refugees problem is solved." is incorrect, Mr. Bright, as these were Arab states. Historically, all indigenous people to the land had lived there for millennia. Jews from the region have the same genetic coding as their Arab brothers. Israel today recieves 3 to 4 billion dollars per year in US aid. More than all other countries combined. So far, keeping Israel a viable state has cost US taxpayers $3 TRILLION: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/stauffer.html The "mutual population exchange", (God, how i despise the use of euphimisms - call it for what it was...forceable removal, ethnic cleansing and dispossession) was initiated by Israel as it was heavily-armed Israeli forces that overran Palestine in 1948 and murdered and terrorized people from their homes. Arab states came to the aid of Palestinians but were too late and too disorganized and too poorly armed (Brits disallowed Palestinians to have weapons during the Mandate Period) to stop the bloodbath. Indigenous Jews who had lived peacefully in Arab States suffered at the hands of some Arabs in RETALIATION for what immigrant Jews had done to Arab brothers in Palestine. It was Israel that descended like a mad elephant on Arab Palestinians, and it is Israel that is still starving and killing innocent people and destroying homes of Palestinians and expanding ever further on to Palestinian lands. Palestinians didn't invade Israel. Israeli Jews invaded and are still encroaching into Palestine. The ongoing violence is the result of that indisputable fact. The people of Gaza are provided for by Israel? Have you been living in a cave? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x302772 http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gXRrC-dbnelx14q6TvvmlSRMZAkA Before you falsely use the tired canard of accusing me of being an anti-Semite (a tired old ploy that is used to quell any challenge of Israel's inhumane and illegal behavior) consider these truths, and challenge me on their merit. Facts based on evidence are what win arguments, Mr. Bright, not name-calling and false charges. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Weinblatt, The charge by Palestinians and others that Israel is committing a holocaust against them isn't that far from reality. The murders of thousands and the dislocation and dispossession of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians by Israel (acts that have been ongoing for 61 years) aren't on the scale of the Holocaust, but the process of containment and starvation and abuse of innocent people by Israeli is the same as the abuse of Jews under Nazi occupation in Europe. 800,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes in 1948. 33 Palestinian towns and villages were scenes of massacres, as more than 500 of these communities were overrun and evacuated to make way for the thousands of Jews arriving in Palestine. Perhaps your next novel can be one that reminds the World of the Nakba, The Catastrophy and of the ongoing suffering of millions of Palestinians who are still being brutalized by an illegal Israeli military occupation. Palestinians also need someone to remind the World, "Never Again!" 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ...and another: http://www.palestinechronicle.com/news.php?id=57ce116a960382b7b5290f4109f1dbb9&mode=details I've not made anything up that I post here. It is all based on solid evidence. And for posting these truths, I get falsely accused of anti-Semitism and worse by those here who have no valid argument, just lies and propaganda and sometimes incoherent rantings. The truth is Israel is killing Palestinians for their land. Once again, look at these maps: http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/landloss.html http://www.fmep.org/maps/west-bank http://www.bobmay.info/feb232002westbankmaps.htm This ongoing theft of land and abuse of a people is what this conflict is about. It has nothing to do with ancient religious rivalries or intransigent violent Arabs or any of the other lies perpetuated by apologists for Israeli colonialism. Israel intends to continue growing into Arab lands and Arabs are resisting their encroachment and their murderous policies. Period. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Here are two more truthful articles based on evidence and facts that demonstrate the inhumanity of the Israeli regime in Jerusalem: http://www.palestinechronicle.com/news.php?id=cadf36558d2f9a19bc9b668036eac7db&mode=details#cadf36558d2f9a19bc9b668036eac7db http://www.palestinechronicle.com/news.php?id=720c87c5714951dab78c67bcedb6a55c&mode=details#720c87c5714951dab78c67bcedb6a55c 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Anyone reading this thread would have to balance the facts based on evidence and logic on one side, vs. the sometimes incoherent rantings based on fear and ignorance and myths of the other side. Childish name-calling and false accusations can never win over truth. Sometimes truth is indeed a bitch. You here have just demonstrated the oftentimes ugly result of cognitive dissonance. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Thousands of Arabs may also have entered Palestine during the Ottoman and Mandate periods, but the fact remains that their numbers still pale in comparison to Jewish immigration. For a history of the conflict: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html There are many prevailing myths about this conflict. One of them is that Israel magnanomously evacuated Gaza and left it to the Palestinians and in return for their generosity Israel was bombarded with rocket fire. Israel's withdrawl was tantamount to guards in Folsum prison leaving the exercize commons, cutting off electricity and supplies to the prisoners and moving to the guard towers and admin buildings. "The Israeli blockade of Gaza has led to a steady rise in chronic malnutrition among the 1.5 million people living in the strip, according to a leaked report from the Red Cross. It chronicles the "devastating" effect of the siege that Israel imposed after Hamas seized control in June 2007 and notes that the dramatic fall in living standards has triggered a shift in diet that will damage the long-term health of those living in Gaza and has led to alarming deficiencies in iron, vitamin A and vitamin D." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/chronic-malnutrition-in-gaza-blamed-on-israel-1019521.html Israeli patrol boats have imposed a 3 mile limit on Gaza fishermen, although the UN recognizes a 20 mile offshor limit. Fisheries are 9 to 12 miles out, and there is a 3 mile dead zone extending to 3 miles offshore of Gaza, as raw sewage is flowing from streets and sewage systems into the Mediteranian because of imposed fuel shortages and lack of pump and generator parts to run the sewage systems. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/chronic-malnutrition-in-gaza-blamed-on-israel-1019521.html Israeli backhoes rip up water and sewage mains, and Israeli troops regularly foray into Gaza and destroy homes and kidnap and kill civilians. Every move of Palestinians is monitored as they are being monitored in airspace they can't use and don't have any control over. So don't pass on the lie that Israel has turned Gaza over to the Palestinians. The bodies of the 5000 dead and wounded from the recent massacre of Gazans show otherwise. These people would also argue that they are not free in Gaza: http://palsolidarity.org/2009/02/5065 Most of the Palestinian deaths in Gaza during 'Cast Lead" were caused by indiscriminate firing by Israelis at Palestinian civilians. Does this look like Israeli artyllerymen were aiming at Hamas fighters? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=white+phosphorous+photos&rlz=1W1RNWN_en&aq=f&oq;=&aqi=g-sx1 I sympathize with the Jewish people who run from inaccurate rocket attacks, but running from F-16 strikes and artillery barrages is equally terrifying, and remember that Israel is the aggressor. ALL violence in this conflict is due to Israeli invasion, occupation and aggression. Israelis invaded Palestine. Palestine didn't invade Israel. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Arkady, I will try to enlighten you about the similarities of the Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza, but you seem so blinded by hate and propaganda that you will no doubt ignore facts. The Nazis rounded up the Jews of Poland and quartered them in a small area of Warsaw, building a barricade around the perimeter to prevent them leaving. So too have the Israelis through conflict and force pushed many of the Arab inhabitants out of Israel into an enclave that now has a population density of 4,200 people per sq. km which is 14 times that of the surrounding area of Israel which has 360 people per sq. km. The Nazis deprived the ghetto inhabitants of food and essential supplies. So too has the Israeli government stopped the flow of goods to the 1.4 million inhabitants of Gaza by limiting the convoys of supplies to a mere trickle. The Nazis reduced the average calorie intake of the Jewish inhabitants of the ghetto to 241 calories per day. So too have the Israelis reduced the calorie intake of the Palestinians in Gaza. According to a UN report, it is presently at 61 percent of the average daily requirements. The Nazis restricted public utilities such as water and electricity. So too has the Israeli government. The Nazis restricted the inhabitants from adequate health care. Israelis restrict the health care in Gaza by limiting the medical supplies in or the treatment of cases that need to be done outside. The Jewish inhabitants through the ZZB and the ZOB resisted the oppression by the Nazis albeit too late and their rebellion was brutally crushed without concern for who was in the way. So too have the Palestinians of Gaza through their own resistance organizations, in particular Hamas, rebelled against their oppressors and so too do the Israelis use all means available to crush the rebellion without concern for who is in the way or who they maim or kill in doing so. The Nazis destroyed the structure of the ghetto leveling it to the ground in a broad quest to rout the resistance to their oppression. Israelis indiscriminately level buildings and the infrastructure in Gaza in a quest to rout out the resistance to their oppression. The Nazis assigned the Jewish people to a lesser status of all their inhabitants depriving them of their rights as citizens and even as humans. Israel assigns the refugees held in Gaza less status than is given to the Jews worldwide and deprives the Palestinians of their rights to return to their former lands. The Nazis applied whatever was at their means to break the will of the Jewish inhabitants of the ghetto. Israelis do the same thing; they use whatever is at their means to break the will of the Palestinians. The Nazis killed the Jewish inhabitants of the ghetto indiscriminately. Don’t the Israelis kill indiscriminately the inhabitants in forcing their control over Gaza? The Jews of Israel and elsewhere are quite right to protest at the inhumanity of the Nazis in their treatment of them and oblige the world not to allow the same situation to happen again. The Palestinians protest at the inhumanity of the Israeli treatment, yet in a bizarre twist of events, the world still allows the oppression to happen and continue. It was after the Jews in the ghetto had been largely killed or transported that the world stood up and felt guilty in not acting sooner. With the picture of Mohammed Al-Borai in my mind I question when the world will stand up and say: Enough is enough, there is not going to be a repeat of the Warsaw Ghetto and particularly when its perpetrators are those who suffered the most by its conduct. There is a basic conflict of inhumanity occurring to the Palestinian people of Gaza that the world is deliberately ignoring. An inhumanity that was inflicted by the Nazis on the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto is now more than ever closely paralleling that which they are inflicting on the people of Gaza. They learned a hard lesson but it was not a lesson learned well. They have been given the power to practice humanity but have decided instead that they will treat the concerns of the Palestinians in the same inhumane way the Nazis treated them. For full article: http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=107394&d=2&m=3&y=2008 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 "Hanoun’s family, refugees from the fighting in Israel's War of Independence in 1948, lived in a house built there by the United Nations in the 1950s, when the land was under Jordanian rule. Now homeless, Hanoun and his family have opted to stay on the sidewalk across from their old house, sleeping on mattresses and passing their days under the shade of a small olive tree." When their home was built, the Hanoun family had already been dispossessed of their former home by Jewish immigrants in 1948. This new home wasn't owned by Israeli Jews because it was built outside the new State of Israel in 1956. Clearly this is a pattern of ethnic cleansing by Israel. As for claims that some Jews were also dispossessed by Arabs following the 1948 purge of Palestinians from the Palestinian's land that became Israel, any purging by Arabs in surrounding states was done in RETALIATION of the original ethnic cleansing done by Israel. Israel was and is the aggressor in this conflict. Palestinian's and others are REACTING to that aggression. Attempts to somehow "balance" the wrongs of both sides are disingenuous; just as attempts at justifying killing of Palestinians who oppose being brutalized and occupied and who strike back at their oppressors is being disingenuous. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For a look at Mr. Pilger's work: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1259454859593416473 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Also, David Hicks, Please see the following that vindicates at least some influential Aussies who "get it" about the unrighteousness of Israaeli policies towards Palestinians. I highly recommend John Pilger's Palestine is Still the Issue: http://www.jta.org/news/article/2009/08/11/1007171/israel-critic-awarded-australian-peace-prize An online video can be viewed here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1259454859593416473 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 If a challenge to post something positive about the Jewish People was posed to me, I also missed it, but I have repeatedly posted the truths that differentiate the Jewish People from the Zionists who have abandoned the teachings of Judahism for power and a brutal apartheid regime. There is much good in all religions, and Judahism is the spiritual wellspring of Monotheism. It is the very foundation of all Western faith and beliefs. The Ten Commandments are Jewish teachings. the Year of Jubilee is a Jewish tradition. "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow men. " is found in the Talmud. I have great admiration and respect of those who have kept these Sacred traditions and practices alive and vibrant over millennia, and for those who dedicate their lives to the call of Judahism to live in peace and harmony with fellow human beings and to care for their brothers in need. I grew up among close Jewish friends who I love. So my posts are not against Jewish people or any other just people. Please read this brief article from another who is much more qualified to speak on the subject of Judahism than I am: http://www.nkusa.org/activities/speeches/bham022603.cfm 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 David Hicks, Thank you for your kind words here. Our nations, the US and Australia, as you know were founded on the land and the blood of indigenous peoples, just as Israel was founded on the land and the blood of innocent peoples. The difference is timing. Colonialism was accepted practice of centuries past. International accords and laws now forbid such behavior. For a good article on Australia's infatuation with Israel: http://israels60thbirthday.com/2008/03/14/139/ Excerpts: "All this falls hard on the heels of the new prime minister’s moving apology to our own indigenous people and raises many questions about the sincerity of that momentous gesture. The similarity between the grievous losses suffered by both peoples — the Aborigines and the Palestinians — is not fanciful. Both peoples have been the hapless victims of the great white colonial enterprise and in both cases, it would have succeeded brilliantly, if these people would have just disappeared. But it is not so easy to kill off people and their dreams. Official reports by human rights organizations documenting Israel’s violations in the Occupied Palestinian Territories provide enough evidence to challenge the appropriateness of any country aligning itself with Israel. The words “apartheid” and “ethnic cleansing” are beginning to enter mainstream consciousness after being given voice by former US President Jimmy Carter and Archbishop Desmond Tutu. Finally, the consciences of people are being stirred. To counter this, Israel has established an Australian chapter of the Peres Center for Peace which is endeavoring to cast Israel in the role of peacemaker — a role it has been unwilling to honor at the negotiating table. It is part of Israel’s new public relations strategy to secure its legitimacy in the global community. Rather than the usual rounds of dialogue and conflict resolution, it is being done on a populist level through sporting activities and culture, and in Australia, where sport dominates so much of our cultural life and social interaction, it is a powerful vehicle for projecting an intended image." "Regrettably, our leaders will continue to pursue their self-serving policies until ordinary, decent people force them to accept that our common humanity is worth more than the lucrative deals that bring such enormous profits to the multinational corporations, and from which many governments benefit. It is by no means impossible. Just as people brought down the apartheid regime in South Africa, the people can bring down the ethnically divisive Zionist regime in Israel as well. This is why the word “apartheid” so rattles Israel’s supporters. However, we have a long way to go, especially when governments insist on continuing their love affairs with Israel. In the meantime, al-Nakba — the Palestinian catastrophe of dispossession and displacement — is being accelerated. This crime against humanity is what needs to be acknowledged in our Parliament, not a motion honoring Israel. The Australian “fair go” that our prime minister so fondly embraces, has never sounded so hollow or sunk so low." http://israels60thbirthday.com/2008/03/14/139/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For much more in-depth information including the history of the region and Palestinian and Jewish ties to the land: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For a brief history of the people who lived on the land that is now claimed by many immigrant Jews: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Palestinian_people 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Also, geneticists have proven that Jews and other Palestinian Arabs share the same genetic code. All people from the area that is now modern Israel have as much right to the land as their legal titles allow. It is ludicrous for someone whose ancestors left the Middle East for lives in other parts of the world to be able to claim special priveledge over a landowner whose family had owned their land in Palestine for decades or hundreds of years. But this is what has happened and is still happening: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF3gN4dLN18 http://www.france24.com/en/20090802-palestinian-families-evicted-jerusalem-homes-israel 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Charles Weinblatt, I commend you for your humanitarian endeavers. Holocaust deniers can have no credible following, as archives are full of testament to the evil persecutions against innocent Jewish people that culminated in the death camps. "Never Again" should be the cry of all who are persecuted. Jews should lead this cry whenever apartheid and ethnic cleansing occurs anywhere on the planet. Yet many Jews support these practices by the government of Israel, and many more remain silent, just as the World, for the most part remained silent while 6 million Jewish innocents were sent to their deaths. The innocent people in Gaza are no better off than the people who were trapped in the Warsaw Ghetto in 1945, as Israel starves, denies them and repeatedly kills their children. Jonathan Tubbs, a British archaeologist, argued that the Israelites were themselves Canaanites, and that "historical Israel", as distinct from "literary" or "Biblical Israel" was a subset of Canaanite culture.[16] Canaan when used in this sense refers to the entire Ancient Near Eastern Levant down to about 100 AD, including the kingdoms of Israel and Judah.[16] For example, Mark Smith in "The Early History of God: Yahweh and Other Deities of Ancient Israel" states "Despite the long regnant model that the Canaanites and Israelites were people of fundamentally different culture, archaeological data now casts doubt on this view. The material culture of the region exhibits numerous common points between Israelites and Canaanites in the Iron I period (ca. 1200-1000 BC). The record would suggest that the Israelite culture largely overlapped with and derived from Canaanite culture... In short, Israelite culture was largely Canaanite in nature. Given the information available, one cannot maintain a radical cultural separation between Canaanites and Israelites for the Iron I period." (pp6–7).[27] Unlike Mesopotamia or Ancient Egypt, where documentation exists that is rich and varied, the documentation about Canaan is very sparse. The only sources that come from inside the region are from Syria - with Bronze Age cuneiform archives of Ebla, Mari, Alalakh and Ugarit. Iron Age materials are even more scarce, because writing then was mostly on papyrus, and unlike in Egypt, none of it has survived the humid climates of the most populous parts of the region. Any debate on the historicity of the Canaanites as presented in Genesis must take into account that the Biblical narratives represent a compilation of many individual sources of information. This follows from the monumental study "Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives" by Thomas L. Thompson, published in 1974,[28] which established a backbone for epigraphers, archaeologists and Old Testament scholars that cannot be ignored,[29] According to Biblical minimalism, the process of editing Biblical sources into a coherent narrative must have occurred after the 7th or possibly the 6th century BC.[30][31][32][33] (This assertion is widely disputed by conservative scholars.) The writers or editors of these Biblical texts had access to a very wide variety of source materials,[34][35] most of which were contemporary or near contemporary with the time of writing. These included religious and literary texts, songs, geographic and topographical information, traditional folk legends, propaganda and annalistic and chronological information of specific events. This material had an unknown and generally variable credibility.[36][37] The writers intended not to produce an objective modern historical account,[38],[39][40] but to present a rationalisation for the theological and genealogical emergence of the monotheistic entity called Israel, bound in a specific covenant with a single divinity. Genesis was never intended to be a manual for archaeological excavation, as the anachronisms were of no concern to its contemporary audience, for whom the texts had meaning.[41] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan I have no problem with those Jews who legally purchased land in what was to become Israel. It is the displacement and dispossession of almost 800,000 Palestinian people in 1948 and the subsequent ongoing theft by Israel of their homes and land. This is a fact that you deny? " “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Israel's founder, David Ben Gurion 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Misstated in above post...meant to say that Palestinian Arabs COMPRISED, not COMPROMISED... Whole different meaning :-) 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Ari H, I thank you for you balanced thoughtful opinion on Mr. Davis' move to Fatah. Who knows what all may have motivated him, but I posit that his conscience led him to seek justice for both sides who have paid in blood over this mess, and he feels that his move was a symbolic extension of an olive branch to the Palestinian people. His stature as a Jewish citizen and an academic gives voice to those with little voice. I respectifully disagree that he could have done as much for peace and justice from outside Fatah, as there have been a number of Jewish pro-Justice-for-Palestinians activists for decades who have been unable to change much. Jacob Amir, If, as you say, the Jewish people have historical rights to all ov Mandatory Palestine, then surely the Palestinian Arabs also have those same rights, as the Jewish population in 1922 was a mere 11%: The census results were:-- Moslems ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 590,890 Jews ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 83,794 Christians ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 73,024 Druzes ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 7,028 Samaritans ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 163 Bahais ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 265 Metawallis ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 156 Hindoos ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 1,454 Sikhs ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 408 _______ Total ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 757,182 http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/3d14c9e5cdaa296d85256cbf005aa3eb/a682cabf739febaa052565e8006d907c?OpenDocument The problem was simply that Palestinians Arabs have always compromised the large majority of the population of pre-Mandate, Mandate, and modern Palestine. The Western Powers had no right to allow hordes of immigrants from all over the World to storm across already-lived-on-land (much of it was being farmed) and displace people whose homes had been there, in many cases, for centuries. No one asked the Palestinians if they'd just mind stepping aside and stay out of the way while Israel rampaged well past even the allotted 53% UN-established borders: http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/landloss.html But what is done is done. Hamas was born in 1988 out of ever-worsening conditions and a feeling of hopelessness by the Palestinians. Hamas was also encouraged by Israeli Mossad and Leadership in hopes that a more radical element than the PA would undermine and divide Palestinian leadership. (the tried and true Divide and Conquer). Hamas, despite the religious piety in it's 21 year old Covenant (although, if one reads passages like Article Six: The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out." it makes sense from a Palestinian's recent historical position) recognizes that Israel is here to stay. Arabs have nothing that militarily compares to the 4th most powerful machine on the planet.. So where to from here? If Israel would quit pushing the boundaries and quit slaughtering and otherwise abusing Palestinians and stealing ever more of their land, withdraw all settlements to outside the 1947 legally-deeded borders( whish isn't even being talked about, as the pre-'67 borders Israel refuses to acknowledge), and allow Palestinians to pursue their lives free and unhindered by military occupationand Arabs in Palestine and those in surrounding states which haven't already done so would make peace with Israel. But none of this can happen with the predominant prevailing attitudes and practices of Zionists within and outside of Jerusalem. So inaccurate rockets that rarely kill anyone will continue being fired from the Gaza prison, and Israel will continue mass-slaughtering Lebanese and Palestinian people and harrassing those it doesn't kill, and nothing will change that makes Israelis nor Palestinians more secure. This is not the outcome that was promised the long-suffering Jewish people in 1948. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 As an ancestor of Shepardic Jews, she is undoubtably also of Palestinian Arab descent: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/25/medicalscience.genetics 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Also, Ari h, Please don't forget that it is Israel that invaded Palestine...not the other way around. Any violence now is a result of that fact. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Ari H, My claims against Israeli injustices are very relevant because Mr. Uri Davis has now joined the Fatah Party, a party that doesn't support killing of innocent people. You may be unaware of the two political parties that one can work within in Palestine. Would you suggest that Mr. Davis should have joined Hamas, or the REAL Jihadists in this story? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125031113130034101.html Mr. Davis is a man of courage. He has seen the ongoing injustices perpetuated on the Palestinians by Israel and is working within the political systems to make needed changes. Without changes, the unnecessary killing and suffering will go on. How do you think the situation in Israel/Palestine can be resolved fairly? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 legitimate criticism of Israeli policies with real anti-Semitism: The false charge of anti-Semitism has long been used along with a “Jews the victim” narrative in order to squelch challenge of the apartheid and genocidal policies of Israel, as Israel steals Palestinian lands. These are very powerful tools, as they play on the consciences of good, thoughtful people. Here’s how it works: Through annual Jewish holocaust remembrances, art shows and Schindler’s List genera movies and television programs, we are steeped in acknowledgment of the plight of the good Jewish people that culminated in the Nazi death camps. There are more than twenty five Holocaust museums in the U.S., some of them erected and maintained with public funds. Virtually all of these museums commemorate the Jewish Holocaust. Six million Jews were worked to death and murdered in Hitler’s death camps; But 5 million others, Slavs, Romani, Socialists and Communists, Poles, homosexuals, intellectuals, mental, emotional and physical “defectives” were also murdered alongside Jews in the camps. Where are their memorials and museums? Where are their annual art shows and Hollywood movies and television shows? Who cries, ‘Never forget!” for them? Jews make up only 2.2% of U.S. population. We now have a significant SE Asian population. Are we to expect to see scores of museums and memorials erected alongside the Holocaust museums to remind us of Pol Pot’s Killing Fields? Probably not. What about other holocausts; Belgian Congo, South Africa, Armenia, USSR, Rwanda, East Timor, and others of the twentieth century in which millions died? Why is it that we are only reminded of the plight of the Jews? It is difficult to challenge victims. One doesn’t chastise a quadriplegic auto accident victim for driving carelessly, even though it may have caused his accident. And it is difficult to challenge Israel, the Jewish (the victim’s) State without engendering widespread condemnation. Even though Israel has invaded other people’s land and is brutally occupying that land with sadistic military force (see: http://www.juancole.com/2007/10/sadism-of-israeli-occupation.html), our media portrays Israel as the victim. In reporting an incident of rock-throwing by Palestinian youths at Israeli tanks, for example, the narrative is always one of Israeli troops having to defend themselves against the aggression of the stone-throwers, of having (always reluctantly) to RESPOND to quell the behavior of a violent people, when in fact, just the opposite is true. The stone-throwing Palestinian youths are attempting to repel the violent, aggressive Israeli soldiers who are on their land. The BBC and other World News sources show the conflict as it really is. Only in America, do we get this twisted logic from our media: “Israel has the right to occupy Palestinian land, lay siege to Palestinian populations in Bantustans surrounded by an apartheid wall, starve the population, cut them off from fuel and electricity, uproot their trees and crops, and launch periodic raids and targeted assassinations against them and their elected leadership, and if this population resists these massive Israeli attacks against their lives and the fabric of their society and Israel responds by slaughtering them en masse, Israel would simply be "defending" itself as it must and should.” (By Joseph Massad)What’s in it for the U.S. to be the only defender of Israel’s continual violation of more than 100 UN Resolutions and Geneva Accords, relating to treatment of the Palestinians?Why would we defend an apartheid theocracy while falsely calling it a democracy? OIL and ARMS.Israel sits next to the light sweet crude oil sump of the World. While only 10% of our oil comes from the Middle East, U.S. hegemony and control via a proxy military power (Israel) in the region gives influence over countries which are dependant on that oil. Israel is also a perfect real-world testing ground for joint U.S. - Israeli weapons development and population crowd control and containment programs. By vetoing UN Resolutions and sending Israel billions of dollars and weapons annually, and by ignoring laws which forbid arms-trading with countries that use weapons such as white phosphorous and cluster bombs illegally (The Arms Export Control Act of 1977, for example), the U.S. masks this fact with righteous claims of “defending little Israel, our democratic little friendly country that is surrounded by hostile Arab States and is under siege” BS. It’s all just a modern extension of “The Great Game” that will continue to play out as long as there is oil to be exploited by empires. In exchange for this unbridled support, Israel gets to keep stealing Arab lands and expanding Greater Israel. And this will continue as long as we allow the false charge of anti-Semitism to inhibit justice for Palestinians.David R. Evans 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 All of you here present nothing to dispute my charges of Israeli terrorism. Instead you falsely accuse me of siding with radical teachings found in ancient religious texts. The Torah has equally as violent teachings as the Koran. Check out Deuteronomy: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/cr_list.html Many of you who post here refuse to cite facts based on evidence to support arguement. Instead you resort to childish rants and name-calling. Again, I provided evidence that Israel is a terrorist State that has commited acts deemed war crimes, as it pushes Palestinians off their land and steals it from them. If a foreign invading horde of people did that to you, wouldn't you rise up against the invaders also? This is what the Palestinian people that you deem terrorists are doing! Israel is the invading terrorist State! Palestinians are defending the remaininhg 12% of the land that they still control. And many of you here support this gross injustice. Support of Israel as Israel commits heinous acts of murder and theft is not just, no matter how one tries to sanctify it. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Ari H. says" ".....Instead he has joined a murderous rabble of disorganized terrorists, who include murderers within their ranks." The same can be said of any jewish leaders in Jerusalem, as Israel was founded on terror (King David Hotel bombing for an example. The 33 massacres committed in Palestinian towns and villages in 1948, for another example. And most recently, the collective terrorizing punishment of all of the innocents who were locked down then bombed, shelled and rocketed and shot by Israeli forces, for example: http://crooksandliars.com/node/25005 This chart reveals the lie Israeli propagandists kept repeating over and over on our nightly news during the attack on Gaza, "Israel is responding to hundreds of rockets fired into Israel from Gaza: http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=bvs&chs=800x320&chd=t:149,84,0,0,0,0,0,0|0,3,8,3,3,1,0,0|0,0,0,0,0,0,68,52&chco=4d89f9,c6d9fd,336699&chbh=a&chds=0,150&chm=N*f0*,333333,0,0:1,10|N*f0*,333333,1,1:6,10|N*f0*,333333,2,6:8,10&chl=May|Jun|Jul|Aug|Sep|Oct|Nov|Dec&chtt=Rocket+Fire+on+Southern+Israel+2008|Source:+Intelligence+and+Terrorism+Center,+Israel&chdl=Before+ceasefire+(June+18+2008)|During+ceasefire|After+November+4+attack Israel was terrorizing and collectively punishing the people of Gaza for electing Hamas to power. Israel also wants to purchase newfound natural gas from Fatah, but the election of Hamas prevented that. That is a primary reason, in Israel's eyes that Hamas must go: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11680 http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11787 doctor from a Khan Yunis clinic in Gaza told me on the phone: Scores of the wounded are clinically dead. Others are so badly disfigured; I felt that death is of greater mercy for them than living. We had no more room at the Qarara Clinic. Body parts cluttered the hallways. People screamed in endless agony and we had not enough medicine or pain killers. So we had to choose which ones to treat and which not to. In that moment I genuinely wished I was killed in the Israeli strikes myself, but I kept running trying to do something, anything. http://raisethehammer.org/index.asp?id=814 This heinous act of terrorism, using tanks, artillery pieces, F-16s and heavily-armed soldiers instead of suicide bombers (which Hamas hasn't used since 2005) which resulted in thousands of dead and near-dead wounded had nothing to do with security of Israel's Jewish citizens. And you here who support this dare to denounce terrorism! 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I misstated. Actually, Mr. Gal's puppet-masters know very well that settlement expansion is a hinderance to peace, but Israel doesn't want peace because peace means no more expansion. So by continuing it's aggressive belligerant policies that incite retaliatory response from the oppressed Palestinians, Israel can continue to steal more land while falsely claiming victimhood. Why should Israel cease this policy, as it has worked for more than 60 years now? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For more on Hamas: http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Gal, unlike his puppet-masters in Jerusalem knows that the real hinderance to peace is the continued expansion of Israel. Colony building on Palestinian land is the root cause of the conflict. Netanyahu's defiance and continued colony-building is a blockade to peace. Why should this truth, that Mr. Gal expressed, be censured? Following are maps of what was given Israel in 1947 compared to maps of what Israel looks like today: http://www.mideastweb.org/unpartition.htm http://palestinethinktank.com/2006/05/10/the-shrinking-map-of-palestine/ http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/0_pal_facts_MAPS.htm Continued land theft by Israel is the paramount obstacle to peace. Obama's administration recognizes this fact and Netanyahu's right wing government's insistance on continuing land theft is creating a wedge that jeopardizes US-Israel relationships. Mr. Gal's statements of truth should be rewarded, not condemned. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Hamas, as the legitimate elected leadership and governing body of the Palestinian people was assisted to power by Mossad in order to undermine PA. Despite the choked borders, the home-invasions and the shootings of innocent Palestinians by Israeli soldiers (all violation of the Egyptian-brokered cease-fire) Hamas held the cease-fire. Israeli forces, on Nov 4, stormed into Gaza and killed several Hamas leaders in order to provoke a retaliatory response. Rockets were again launched, and Operation Cast Lead, which had been planned for 2 years was launched. This is all verifyable fact. Example: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=570_1231857330 My point is that the propaganda charges that Hamas is a terrorist group are lies, as Hamas is attempting to crush terrorist activity from within, as it's leadership realizes that such activity is counterproductive to it's cause of liberation for the Palestinian people. Legitimate resistance to occupation and oppression is not terrorism. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 http://radioislam.org/jewish-photos/index.htm http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/13/israeli-soldiers-killed-u_n_258355.html http://www.hrw.org/en/features/israelgaza-photographs-white-phosphorus-use 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 A bit mor on human shields: http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/archive/NATLIsraeli-Soldiers-We-Used-Palestinians-as-Human-Shields.html ..and the purposeful unnecessary destruction of homes, buildings and property by Israeli forces in "Cast Lead" which is also a violation of international law: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/07/15/israel.gaza.report/index.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Also, Mr. Edwards and others here, please back up your illogical claims and ridiculous unfounded rants with documented facts and logic. Anyone is free to state anything they want here, but unless facts are provided one cannot hope to win an argument. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Regarding use of civilians as human shields, a war crime: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/23/israel-gaza-war-crimes-guardian Keep in mind that the destroyed houses in this video are homes that were destroyed by an occupation. Occupation is a violation of international law. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I just re-read some of the posts here, and the key point that some people here are missing is that ALL of the violence of Palestinians cited is RETALIATORY and REACTIONARY violence. The influx of Jews descending onto predominantly Arab Christian and Muslim lands in the 1st half of last century created natural tribal animosity. (we all are genetically-encoded with tribal behaviors - a survival key) When the UN allowed for a Jewish State on Palestinian-owned traditional land that the Palestinians were promised would be theirs (the Balfour Declaration 'promised" the land to Jews, but all other Arabs except Palestinian people were given their autonomy during the Brit and French Mandate Period - Palestinians were repeatedly told, essentially, "You're not ready, but soon; Come back next year.) "The Balfour Declaration, made in November 1917 by the British Government...was made a) by a European power, b) about a non-European territory, c) in flat disregard of both the presence and wishes of the native majority resident in that territory...[As Balfour himself wrote in 1919], 'The contradiction between the letter of the Covenant (the Anglo French Declaration of 1918 promising the Arabs of the former Ottoman colonies that as a reward for supporting the Allies they could have their independence) is even more flagrant in the case of the independent nation of Palestine than in that of the independent nation of Syria. For in Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country...The four powers are committed to Zionism and Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long tradition, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder import than the desire and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land,'" Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine." http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/mandate.html The violent birth of Israel and the subsequent humiliation and subjugation abuse and imprisonment of the Palestinian People as ever more of their lands are colonized by Israel has created an atmosphere of RETALIATORY violence. But the vehement Israeli-supporters her fail to recogniize that fact. And our media fails to report that fact. Example: Palestinian youths throwing stones at Israeli military vehicles. Israeli troops shoot at and kill Palestinian stone-throwers. Narrative on CBS Evening News: "Israeli troops under attack by stone-throwers reluctantly respond to violent Palestinians and shoot them." Conclusion of news-viewers: “Violent stone-throwing kids deserve to die for attacking armed good Israeli troops.” CBS News neglected to inform viewers that the Israeli troops and their vehicles have no business invading and occupying Palestinian towns and neighborhoods in the first place. Occupation of lands by foreign powers is illegal under international law. If Palestinians were allowed to live on their own lands without subjugation by Israel and itsheavily-armed military machine, there would be no violent REACTION to occupation. All reported violence in Israel/Palestine is a result of this simple, irrefutable fact. So it is Israel and its allies that are the root cause of the problem. Period. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 david hicks, regarding your post to Will Edwards: Will Edwards : You sound like one angry Jew to me. What stops you from responding to reasonable questions I wonder. And what causes you to respond with such virulence in you personal attacks on other posters ? Look at the racism you reflexively demonstrate too : “ you’re all the same ignorant dog of an Arab ...” Good grief ! What a way to address a fellow human being. What must your thoughts be like I wonder ; a cesspool of rage, fear and hatred methinks. I think that part of the ranting reaction to facts and truths that you and a few others post here (one can distinguish these truths by noting links to source data, documents and using logic instead of relying on anecdotal musings and the passing-on of myths and "conventional wisdom" based on lies and propaganda) is due to a condition called cognitive dissonance. Cognitive Dissonance: This is the feeling of uncomfortable tension which comes from holding two conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time. Dissonance increases with: The importance of the subject to us. How strongly the dissonant thoughts conflict. Our inability to rationalize and explain away the conflict. Dissonance is often strong when we believe something about ourselves and then do something against that belief. If I believe I am good but do something bad, then the discomfort I feel as a result is cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is a very powerful motivator which will often lead us to change one or other of the conflicting belief or action. The discomfort often feels like a tension between the two opposing thoughts. To release the tension we can take one of three actions: Change our behavior. Justify our behavior by changing the conflicting cognition. Justify our behavior by adding new cognitions. Dissonance is most powerful when it is about our self-image. Feelings of foolishness, immorality and so on (including internal projections during decision-making) are dissonance in action. If an action has been completed and cannot be undone, then the after-the-fact dissonance compels us to change our beliefs. If beliefs are moved, then the dissonance appears during decision-making, forcing us to take actions we would not have taken before. Cognitive dissonance appears in virtually all evaluations and decisions and is the central mechanism by which we experience new differences in the world. When we see other people behave differently to our images of them, when we hold any conflicting thoughts, we experience dissonance. Dissonance increases with the importance and impact of the decision, along with the difficulty of reversing it. Discomfort about making the wrong choice of car is bigger than when choosing a lamp. http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/cognitive_dissonance.htm People like Will Edwards, when confronted with FACTS and EVIDENCE that belie their lifelong beliefs in the righteousness of Israel, a nation founded on terror and murder of innocent people, will withdraw to their mythical fantasy world, rather than face the ugly truth that they, themselves have supported and still support the slaughter and dispossession off completely innocent people who just lived on land Israel is intent on continuing to steal. If one withdraws to the fantasy, then, everything is ok in Lalaland. Everything is righteous and good in Lalaland. Good (Israel) will prevail over evil (Arabs) in Lalaland. Truths are deemed as threats to Lalaland. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For more on Israel's illegal claim to Jerusalem: "The United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 declared that the Knesset's 1980 "Jerusalem Law" declaring Jerusalem as Israel's "eternal and indivisible" capital was "null and void and must be rescinded forthwith". This resolution advised member states to withdraw their diplomatic representation from the city as a punitive measure. The council has also condemned Israeli settlement in territories captured in 1967, including East Jerusalem (see UNSCR 452, 465 and 741)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jerusalem Of course, Israel cares not what the rest of the world thinks, as its leaders continuing acting illegally and kill Palestinians and steal their lands with impunity. For a list of ignored UN Resolutions that Israel ignores regarding treatment of Palestinian people: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/un.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Ms. Mavricos, Much of what you post here is devoid of facts. For example, as much as you'd like people to believe in the mythical nonsense that Jerusalem was somehow "liberated", as you say, your statement is totally false: "The modern history of Jerusalem began in the mid-nineteenth century, with the decline of the Ottoman Empire. At that time, the city was a backwater, with a population that did not exceed 8,000. Nevertheless, it was, even then, an extremely heterogeneous city because of its significance to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The population was divided into four major communities - Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Armenian - and the first three of these could be further divided into countless subgroups, based on precise religious affiliation or country of origin. An example of this would be the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which was meticulously partitioned between the Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Armenian, Coptic, and Ethiopian churches. Tensions between the groups ran so deep that the keys to the shrine were left with a 'neutral' Muslim family for safekeeping." Jerusalem has, for eons, been a multi-cultural city that rightfully "belonged" to it's diverse inhabitants. Israel's claim on the city and it's ongoing cleansing of all but Jewish inhabitants is illegal under international law: Thus: UN Resolution 252 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as the Jewish capital". Israel's acquiring property and Israel's dispossession of others is also a violation of international law (Fourth Geneva Convention): Article 49. The second paragraph of Article 49 provides that persons displaced during armed conflict must be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased. This right of displaced persons is often referred to as the "right of return" and has been reaffirmed in later international treaties and conventions. State Practice also establishes this rule as a norm of customary international law, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross. Israel not only ran more than 800,000 people from their homes and refused to let them return in 1948, but they still continue running people out of their homes and take the homes for Jewish settlers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcjchhD3qBc For a related story on the significance of Israel's continuing land theft in East Jerusalem and elsewhere: http://www.imemc.org/article/61362 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 "Israeli government officials have been weighing in on the congress. Before the weekly Cabinet meeting Sunday, Defense Minister Ehud Barak said “the rhetoric coming from Fatah and the positions being expressed are grave and unacceptable to us.” The next day, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman told a group of visiting Democratic U.S. Congress members that the Fatah platform, along with unrest in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, “has buried any chance of coming to an agreement with the Palestinians in the next few years.” Someone should tell Mr. Lieberman that continuing evictions of Palestinian families and turning their homes over to immigrant settlers is completely unacceptable to Palestinians and that continuing home invasions and kidnapping of Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank which has been going on for far longer than the recent rhetoric and rightful claims of resistance by Fatah has buried any chance of peace. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcjchhD3qBc 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ...and Israel continues to get even more discriminatory over time. Lest you think that this discrimination is only residual practice from Israel's violent birth: In a July 29, 2007 press release, Adalah referred to “a (July 18, 2007) racist bill entitled the ‘Jewish National Fund Law (JNFL)’” stipulating that JNF land is to be solely for Jews. It added a new provision to the 1960 ILA Law called “Management of the Jewish National Fund’s Lands” saying: Despite whatever is stated in any law, leasing of Jewish National Fund’s lands for the purpose of the settlement of Jews on these lands will not be seen as improper discrimination.” Further, “For the purpose of every law, the association documents of the Jewish National Fund will be interpreted according to the judgment of the Jewish National Fund’s founders and from a nationalist-Zionist standpoint. The JNFL was introduced in the Knesset and passed its preliminary reading. In September 2007, Israel’s Supreme Court held a hearing on Adalah’s 2004 petition and approved a JNF and Attorney General proposal to delay further deliberation for three months. It stipulated that, during the interim period, Arabs could bid for JNF-controlled lands but that JNF would be compensated for Arab purchases by transferring other state lands to it. Adalah’s General Director Attorney Hassan Jabareen and Attorney Suhad Bishara rejected the proposal because it left Israel’s discriminatory policy intact. In other words, newly seized land would replace Arab purchases, leaving them no better off than before. Adalah argued for ending Israel’s discriminatory policy, not tinkering with it around the edges and accomplishing nothing. So far, it hasn’t happened. In addition, current law empowers the ILA further to restrict and prohibit Palestinian land development by: putting large Arab areas under its control through the creation of regional councils; enforcing rigid zoning restrictions for residential, agricultural, and industrial use; forbidding unlicensed construction, banning it on agricultural land, and stipulating where Jews and Arabs can live; denying Palestinian areas room to expand while affording Jewish ones great latitude; transferring public land adjacent to Arab communities to the JNF and mandating its use for Jews only; declaring national priority town areas off-limits to Arabs; delaying, restricting and prohibiting local development in Arab communities; denying Palestinians representation on national planning committees; and using forced evictions and home demolitions to make more areas available for Jews. http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/israels-discriminatory-land-policies/ Israel realizes that the sheer demographics of its internal Palestinian population will eventually (within 20 years)necessitate either Israel either abondon the ridiculous Zionist dream of an apartheid state and become a true democracy with equal rights for ALL of it's citizens, or Israel will have to contain and oppress more than half of it's citizenry, an impossible task. This is why Palestinians are being starved and pushed out of their homes as ever more Palestinian land is being stolen for immigrants. And this is what Ahmadinejad was referring to when he said that Israel is a rotting corpse. The state of Israel, as it exists today cannot survive. Instead of continuing to support the failing oppressive policies of Jerusalem, we need to help Israel change direction towards justice and security for ALL of it's people. It's trite, but the slogan, "Friends don't let friends drive drunk" applies here, I think. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ...Also, Mr. Kats and others here who believe the oft-repeated lie that "Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and Israel shares our values": The real situation in Israel is really very simple: Israel is not an ‘Israeli’ state, or a state of its citizens but it is a ‘Jewish state.’” With regard to land, “More than 90% of the inhabited areas of the State of Israel are under the rule of the Jewish National Fund regulations, under which non-Jews cannot rent or buy a house or flat, open a business, in short cannot live. This land is called in Hebrew ‘the land’ saved. The land which belongs to non-Jews is called unsaved not national (meaning Jewish) and by buying or confiscating it from a non-Jew by a Jew, the land is supposed to be ’saved.’ ” It’s only the beginning. Numerous privileges are afforded Jews alone that include: not only the right to the land but to a mortgage or loan to finance it; on confiscated West Bank land, “Jewish inhabitants enter into prepared houses, with water and electricity;” unconnected Arab villages are forbidden to use either; and “A building project for the newly-married applies only for the Jewish newly-married and so forth; to be a Jew in a Jewish state is to be both a privileged being, and to be able to receive a lot of ‘easy’ money a non-Jew can not ever get.” An apartheid State that discriminates so blatantly certainly has little in common with a democracy. Any state based solely on religious affiliations or cultural exclusion is illigetimate in the eyes of a civilized world. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Yes, Mr. Katz, there are many nice Israelis, and many of them have suffered at the hands of Palestinians who have also suffered and lost precious friends and family in the senseless violence. Hebron has a rich history of both Jewish and arab Muslim cultures. The 1929 Massacre was horrific, but so were the 33 separate massacres committed against Palestinians as Israel rampaged across what was formerly Palestinian lands in 1948. The Palestinian uprisings in 1936 were equally disturbing with loss of innocent life, but that uprising was a reaction to the large influx of Jewish immigrants (Jewish population increased from less than 7% in 1900 to about 30% by 1936), some of whom were occupying and building on Palestinian land. Palestinians, by this time were losing hope of ever attaining Statehood under British Mandate rule, as surrounding Arab states had obtained their autonomy. As for Arab children embracing the 'intifada" (shaking-off of oppression), check out this picture of Jewish kids: http://incogman.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/signing-shells.jpg Your statement, "If they had a normal society, they would never tolerate naming a soccer stadium after a terrorist (there are dozens of such examples). " isn't well thought out, as tens of thousands of schools across our own country are named George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. A country and a people who have been under brutal military occupation for decades can hardly be called, "any normal society". 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Katz, The fatal flaw in your argument is that in all of the other cases you cite about right of return of refugees, those refugees were dispossessed of their homes and their lands when there were no international laws and bodies that prevented dispossession by force. See: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/int_law.html Jewish families who fled their homes in surrounding statesas a result of reprisals by Arab force subsequent to attacks by Israel on Palestinians should also be allowed to return or be compensated for their loss. Mr. Hartuv, Please refrain from passing on the tired myth of the "generous offer" that the PA rightfully rejected at OSLO. In the first place, the land was taken from Palestinians. Israel has no right to offer to give something back that it has stolen. But even assuming that Israel has that right, there was never an offer made that would have allowed Palestinians anything but a hacked-up group of bifrucated 'islands separated by Israeli communities and Jewish-only roads peppered with checkpoints. Palestinians were to have had no control of their airspace, waterways and travel. All commerce was to have been monitored and controlled by Israel. In other words, had they accepted the 'offer' they would have had a non-contiguous, open air cluster of Israeli-controlled prisons just like they now have. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113 http://www.apartheidmasked.org/?p=121 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Phili Alwal, You are misinformed as to the legitimacy of the myth of the second Diaspora. I suggest that you read the works of Dr. Shlomo Zand of the University of Tel Aviv, Israel: http://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel The Palestinian people inhabited Palestine since pre-Biblical times (clue: Philistines). Jews have historical connections to some lands in the Middle East , although they were always a minority population. Jews were good at prostelitizing their religion, according to historical records. Jews never left the land en masse. Judahism did, as the religion spread. Furthermore, Jews and Arabs share the identical genetic coding. Being Jewish is a religion and a culture, not a People separate from their Arab Christian and Muslim and Druse brothers. Any claim to exclusive RIGHT to other people's land is mythical nonsense. As I have no right to claim land owned by my cousins in England or Wales, Jewish people have no right to claim land owned by Palestinians. Period! 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Please be informed that the hatred from both sides of this conflict is acknowlwdged by me, and it is appaling: http://card.wordpress.com/2006/07/24/israeli-children-signing-bombs-part-ii/ But the central point of the conflict is a point that you seem to refuse to address. That is, that the hatred and animosity of some of the Palestinians is REACTIONARY to the brutal subjugation and occupation of an invading ISRAELI force that was thrust on a peaceful People as Israel was born. I dare say that had you or I been living in Palestine when well-armed military forces began shooting and bombing us to move us out of the way so that an invading horde of newcomers could steal our homes and lands and virtually imprison our families and neighbors, we would have no great love for our abusers also. This is the plight of Palestinians. Most of those who fled in 1948 either ended up in refugee camps (many of them again fleeing or put under occupation following the 1967 and 1973 wars). Those few who stayed in Israel as the new State was formed around them ended up as apartheid citizens with few rights as citizens in Israel. They cannot get building permits or in some cases marriage licenses, for example. Suggested reading: http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/CHESEP.html Israeli soldiers routinely shoot and kill unarmed innocent Palestinians, and immigrant settlers who are required by Israel to be armed, routinely shoot, beat and otherwise harass innocent unarmed Palestinians and drive them from their lands: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/992618.html and Israel is continuing the land-theft as Palestinians are forcibly removed from their homes to make way for more Jewish settlers: http://www.internal-displacement.org/idmc/website/countries.nsf/(httpEnvelopes)/0A380A2C3398B310C12574B70052A9E3?OpenDocument http://palestinevideo.blogspot.com/2009/08/btselem-east-jerusalem-two-palestinian.html It's little wonder that some of these oppressed people rise up in violence against the Israelis. Again...Israelis invaded Palestine. Palestinians didn't invade Israel. That is an irrefutable fact. ALL violence in Israel/Palestine is subsequent to that very simple fact. All of this violence 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Katz, Rather than report and pass on lies and propaganda about a people you know little about, I suggest that you travel to Palestine (The West Bank, of course, as Israel has blockaded Gaza and walled it in so that the can no longer claim occupation). Several of my friends have visited the West Bank, and all of them commented on the hospitality and generosity and graciousness of the thousands of Palestinians they encountered there. Your propagandized stereotyping of a people based on radical religious dogma is nowhere near truth. As for your denial of Israel's practice of ethnic cleansing please consider the following: “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” David Ben Gurion "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben Gurion Three decades ago Winston Churchill's grandson asked Ariel Sharon how Israel should deal with the Palestinians. "We'll make a pastrami sandwich out of them," he replied. "We'll insert a strip of Jewish settlements in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlements right across the West Bank, so that in twenty-five years' time, neither the United Nations nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart." Mission accomplished. On April 14 in Washington, Sharon unwrapped his pastrami sandwich and received George W. Bush's seal of approval. Bush supported Israel's retention of several large Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank and said that Palestinian refugees should be resettled in a "Palestinian state"--however notional... ....and the settlement-building and ethnic cleansing continues: http://www.imemc.org/article/61332 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eufahQKPkks 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Imagine if your family, like these families, just happened to be born in this neighborhood instead of where you were born. http://www.imemc.org/article/61332 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Please see the following: http://freegaza.org/it/home/video-freegaza http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565 http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/there-is-not-too-much-glory-and-valor-involved-in-flying-over-a-giant-prison-and-firing-at-its-people-using-helicopters-and-fighter-jets/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Of course it's inhumane and illegal to target ANY civilians, Israeli or Palestinian. The glaring difference that isn't mentioned in this article is one of scale. From 2001 until 2008 there were 8 Israelis killed by rockets fired from Palestine. Palestinian rockets are notoriously inaccurate and next to useless as anything but a cry of resistance to occupation to Israel and to the rest of the world. Israeli soldiers and fighter pilots and patrol boat skippers regularly shoot and kill hundreds of Palestinians with rifles, rockets, artillery bombs and other highly-accurate ordinance in a systematic effort to expel them from the land. It's called ethnic cleansing and land theft. Israelis invaded Palestine to form a state.. Palestinians didn't invade Israel. Israel is the aggressor, and Palestinians are defending what little is left of their lands and resisting oppression by the invader. It's as simple as that. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Cheryl writes,"There is no comparison. By now the Palestinians could have had their own state. They could have had secure borders, citizenship rights, and easy access between Gaza and the West Bank. But time and again, they refused to compromise with the Jews." It is total myth that Palestinians coulsd have a state of their own if only they would cease the violence! The Balfour Declaration of 1917 sealed their fate when British rulers promised Palestine to hordes of invading Jewish people with absolutely zero legal or moral connection to the land. Israel's ongoing land theft is based on pure myth. That aside for now, Israel offers no contiguous free state to Palestinians. The West Bank is hacked up and bifurcated with Jewish-only roads that curtailPalestinian's travel and separate them from their neighbors , towns and farmlands. They have no autonomy over their waters or airspace, as they are shot at and often killed while attempting to get to fisheries or farms. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSECq3kxT4I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF3ZMy7ICDY and related videos. Also read: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113 and...http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/israels-generous-offer/ Israel continually purposely goads Lebanese and Palestinians into retaliatory acts of violence then continues land-appropriations and settlement-building while the stalling for peace and the lies of the leadership in Jerusalem continues. That's the game played by Zionists in Israel. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Of course there are those here who confuse and purposely conflate any criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, as this is a website that is biased and a propaganda tool. I am no anti-Semite. I have great love and respect for the Jewish People and Judahism, and I know many good Jewish people whom I consider my friends who are working hard towards Justice in the Middle East. My childhood best friend's parents escaped Germany, but their grandparents perished in the camps. Please don't equate criticism of the apartheid ethnic-cleansing regimes in Jerusalem with anti-Sematic behavior. If you really want what is best for Israel, please read: Saving Israel From Itself http://www.harpers.org/archive/2005/01/0080361 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 While all here are focused on the statements of Palestinian leadership that sanctions righteous continued resistance of the Illegal occupation and ongoing land theft of Israel, Netanyahu and Lieberman continue abusing and dispossessing Palestinians of their homes. The real obstacle to peace isn't resistance to abuse. The real obstacle to peace is the initial CAUSE of that resistance. But few back up and recognize that fact. The twisted logic goes as follows: " Israel has the right to occupy Palestinian land, lay siege to Palestinian populations in Bantustans ( open air prisons) surrounded by an apartheid wall, starve the population, cut them off from fuel and electricity, uproot their trees and crops, and launch periodic raids and targeted assassinations against them and their elected leadership, and if this population resists these massive Israeli attacks against their lives and the fabric of their society and Israel responds by slaughtering them en masse, Israel would simply be "defending" itself as it must and should." Joseph Massad comments for EI. Israel has been an aggressive terrorist state since it's founding. Consider the words of one of its founders: “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” David Ben Gurion ...and this from Ben Gurion: "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Anyone who supports the illegal, inhumane modern State of Israel is delusional and a psychopath without empathy for innocent long-suffering Palestinians who did nothing to deserve the murderous rampages of the killer state that descended on them in 1948 to steal their lands. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Why should Palestinians promise to quit resisting the brutal occupation and theft of their lands by invaders? I am of Welsh-English descent. I have no right to begin a movement of others of Welsh and English ancestry who now live abroad to jump on a ship and sail back to the UK to throw Brits from their homes and subjugate them under my group's brutal military rule while I continue to steal their land. But that is precisely what Jews have done to Christian and Muslim families, and Israel is continuing this terrible injustice with support of the US. Will someone here please try to justify this illogical inhumane practice that is so widely condemned by the rest of the civilized world? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Of course attacks against civilian populations are war crimes. Israel attacks civilians daily and illegally occupies land it has stolen from innocent people. These attacks are also war crimes. Israel attacked entire neighborhoods with white phosphorous artillery rounds, burning children in their homes. This is a war crime. Israeli forces daily conduct raids into civilian homes and arrest and incarcerate innocent people. 12,000 of these men women and children are rotting in Israeli prisons without benefit of adequate legal council, while the propaganda machine of Israel prattles on about one Israeli soldier, Shalit. Hundreds of Palestinians die for every Israeli killed in the conflict, but we pretend that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is somehow balanced. Israel is the aggressor state that has descended on Palestinians and stolen their land. Period! It is Israel, by a factor of hundreds, that is in the wrong, but putrid article such as this one try to lay blame on the victims. This article is pure propaganda that distorts truth. Nothing more. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Hartuv, Given your statement,"For Jews, though, the connection between a person and his property is holy. Returning lost items rectifies the world and is a Torah obligation.", perhaps you can explain then how the continuing theft of Palestinian homes and land by the Israeli government and Jewish settlers is justifiable. Israel is established on land that was owned for millennia by Jews, Christians, Muslims and others. For modern Zionists to lay claim to other's property and to murder and forcibly evict and dispossess others for that property violates all international human rights law and the basic tenets of Judahism. Yet it is happening. And with the approval of much of our Christian and Jewish people's support. Please see this video of just one such evition of innocent people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcjchhD3qBc&NR=1 How can people who proclaim righteousness approve of this activity by Israel? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Romani...Spelling error 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 All victims of ethnic cleansing and genocide policies should be compensated. So is a fund also going to be set up to compensate survivors of ethnic cleansing and genocidal policies directed at Palestinian victims by Israel? God knows that some these people have suffered as much as Holocaust survivors (Jews and many non-Jews), and Palestinians have suffered the violence for far longer than the victims of German atrocities. Do these survivor benefits also include Romany, Polish Socialists and Communists, homosexuals, alleged spies and enemies of the Nazi regime and others or their survivors who were persecuted, tortured and murdered by Nazis? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For the sake of brevity, please read the following which I wrote in response to dialogue on a Portland State University website: PSU student, you make several points, some of which I will respectfully argue. You imply that there is unwillingness to hear your side as well. What is “your side” that I haven’t heard countless times? I know of the terrible persecutions and the purges that you write of, as this narrative of Jewish suffering and historical condemnation and bondage of your people is part of our cultural construct. We in the U.S. are taught this and reminded of it constantly through our media. A CSI episode just recently again reminded us of the Nazi atrocities against Jews, and the degenerate knuckle-dragging underclass anti-Semite punks in our midst. What is “your side” that can justify your beloved Israel repeatedly bombing children in their beds, and starving them in their homes to encourage their families to leave their lands so that it can be filled with your Jewish brothers? All of the suffering and the dispossessions of the good Jewish faithful that you mention are travesties that should never have happened, and much of the current uncertainty experienced by Jewish families living outside Israel should not be, but much of it is a result of reactionary animosity because of Israel’s current policies towards Palestinians. I have no argument against your charges of Christian atrocities, and I claim not to be included in the ranks of any orthodox religion. The Christ I know is in the Gospels of the Nag Hammadi codices and in the teachings of Siddhartha. My paternal grandmother was German-Native American. I have journeyed to Big Hole, and the lands of Crazy Horse. I’ve cried at the gravesites of Chief Joseph, Elder and Younger, and I have visited Little Big Horn and wept not for the occupiers and those who brought war to the lands of the Lakota, the Cheyenne and the Arapaho, but for the fallen warriors there who were defenders of their people. I’ve stood at the fence of Wounded Knee and felt the suffering of generations of people who were stripped of their culture and forcibly contained , and I am fully aware of the containment and eugenics including medical experimentation and sterilization that was ongoing in the U.S. and Canada at the time of the re-occupation there in 1973. Just five years before, I was an occupier as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam. So I know of all that you write about injustice not being exclusively an Israeli act. While what you write is true, it does not excuse Israel for what it is doing to Palestinians. Multiple wrongs will never equal right. Empire. Expansion of Empire is what drove Europeans to overrun the entire Western Hemisphere, decimating more than 500 separate cultures. And expansion of empire is what Zionism is now about as Israel plans to expand evermore into Arab Lands. In prior centuries, Manifest Destiny policy used religion as excuse, just as Modern Zionism uses Religion as excuse. The U.S. could never do today what it did to Mexico; steal fully 1/3 of its land mass from Mexicans because international laws and accords prevent such behavior. But Israel continues stealing land with impunity. I don’t care how one tries to justify this, it is wrong. For those who think the land is an unconditional promise from God, I suggest they consider the works of Thomas Williamson. A sample: http://www.thomaswilliamson.net/God's Land.htm From: http://www.thomaswilliamson.net/ …and check out 2 Chronicles, chapter 7 verses 19 – 22. And also read the works of Dr. Shlomo Sand of the University of Tel Aviv: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966952.html Dr. Sand’s research belies some of the myths of Israel, the Diasporas and the claim of right to return. Nothing can justify apartheid, genocide and ethnic cleansing. Nothing. For a state that claims democracy to sanction these evils is ultimate hypocrisy. Demographics will demand that within 20 years Israel either give up apartheid and become a true democratic state with equal rights for all of its citizens or Israel will perish in violence. The second choice is unacceptable. A good read on this subject was published in Harpers a few years ago: Saving Israel From Itself, by Bernard Avishai http://www.harpers.org/archive/2005/01/0080361 For all of the dialogue and it's context: http://www.dailyvanguard.com/palestinian-via-dolorosa-1.1758313 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 also, please read this brief article by the founder of a website that I referred to. It is not a "tainted" site, as you have baselessly charged. Please back up your allegations with more than ignorant opinion: http://www.oregonlive.com/news/argus/index.ssf?/base/news/1233948071163500.xml&coll=6 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Check out this article: http://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Shuster, your question, "If the American Indian is considered the aboriginal, why do you reject the Jewish people’s rights in their own homeland?" is a confused analogy, as Palestinians who were descended on by Jewish immigrants are more analogous to our aboriginal people on the North American continent. So it is I who should be asking you why you reject the rights of Palestinians to their homeland. The Zionist notion of a "right of return" is bogus, as Jews in massive numbers never left the small portion of what is now Israel/Palestine. This is a historical fact. Judahism spread throughout the World just as Christianity and the Islamic Faith spread throught the World through proselytization of the Faith. In modern times Jews constituted less than 10% of the population of what was to become Israel. In 1948, they still made up only 33%. Jews have NO exclusive right to the land that is now Israel, in fact UN resolutions declared that Jews live side by side with their Arab Palestinian brothers, and that after Israel was established, UN 242 demanded that those 700,000 Palestinians who fled their homes be allowed to return to them. Israel never allowed that to happen, and Israel continues bulldozing homes and building The Wall into Palestinian areas, stealing more land and evacuating and cutting off Palestinians from their lands. Settlement-building continues, as Ariel Sharon's plan continues, unabated: http://nonprofitnet.ca/wao/wao.php?show&1085; 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 N Shuster, as an example of nonsence, let's examine your statement, "Judea (Roman name) is the historic birthplace of the Jewish people recognized by history, religious heritage, the League of Nations, Balfour Declaration, etc., etc. After one betrayal after another, the West “allowed” the Jews to return to a small part of their ancient homeland only to be met with the hostility and violence of the squatters. I guess you mind the Israelis’ success of defending themselves. While Jews lived on some of the land referred to, so did people of other religions and cultures. Jews have no exclusive right to ALL of what other people have historical attachment to. On what logic do you base such a foolish claim? Thousands of years later, after much population movements, mixing and boundary changes as empires waxed and waned, Jews claim they have exclusive right to throw out people who have made the land their homes for dozens of generations? What kind of moral ground can such a claim have? Only a sociopathic racist could side with such nonsense! 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Shuster..I responded to your posts, but my response is being evaluated by this site monitor. I assume that it will be posted. My sources are backed by factual documentation. this is why I refer to links, unlike you who are just posting on opinion and recitation of mythical beliefs that cannot be documented. "A fair and knowlegable person" always fact checks and provides data, not undocumented nonsense or lies. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 N Shuster...For truth, not myth on the history of Judea, consider this: The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine “The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David’s conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule.” Illene Beatty, “Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan.” For more enlightenment:: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html#early Also consider the works of Jewish historian Dr. Shlomo Zand: http://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel The article is titled, "Israel Deliberately Forgets its History", by Dr. Zand, of the University of Tel Aviv. As for your false charges of ant-Semitism directed toward me, I emphatically deny that charge. Such false accusations are always used by Israel apologists to squelch qusstioning of Israel's illegal and immoral slaughter of innocents for their land. The logic goes like this: Jews were persecuted. Israel, despite claims of democracy, is a Jewish State. "How dare anyone challenge the victim's State!". There are almost 30 Jewish Holocaust museums in the U.S. and every year Hollywood produces another "Shindler's List" movie and several TV programs that remind us of the horrific treatment and extermination of Jews under Nazis. The Jewish community makes up 2.2% of US population. There is now a significant SE Asian population in our country. Are we to soon see an equal number of "Killing Fields museums across the land, reminding us of Pol Pot and his genocidal policies? What about the 5 million people other than Jews that were gassed and worked to death by Nazis? Where are there museums? The control of our Congress and the symbiotic relationship between the US and Israel (The US seat at the UN Security Council has vetoed dozens of Resolutions against Israel's illegal and immoral treatment of Palestinians, despite unanamous rulings of other members) is dependant on our ignorance of events in Palestine and our false perception of Israel-the victim, when in fact, as the rest of the world knows, Israel is the aggressor. For US hegemonic influence over the oil sump that is the Middle East, Israel fits our needs as our proxy military (despite Israel's attack on one of our ships, the USS Liberty, in 1967 that killed and wounded several US sailors - google that story for a peek at how our world operates behind the scenes). In exchange for US influence on the region and it's oil recipients (mostly Asian markets - despite conventional wisdom (which is often based on myth, not facts) that claims otherwise, the US only gets 10% of its oil from the Middle East), Israel gets to abuse the owners of the land of Palestine with impunity and steal more and more of their land. in fact, the US illegally helps Israel do this in violation of the 1976 Arms Export Control Act,as Israel routinely uses such weapons as cluster bombs, depleted uranium and white phosphorous illegally on civilian men, women and children. I am no anti-Semite, as two of my close childhood friends escaped Hitler's Germany. Their grandparents died in the death camps. I know what life is for people, like Palestinians who are under brutal military occupation, as I was an occupier as a US Marine in Vietnam more than 40 years ago. The good Palestinian people have been under seige and are being denied basic human rights for far longer than most of us here have been alive. It's time that their nightmare of death and destruction is ended and they are granted their State on the 22% of the land that remained Palestinian before 1967, or Israel becomes a true democracy, with equal rights for ALL of it's citizens, Palestinian Christians, Muslims, Jews, Druse and secular or of other religions. They are all, despite the myths and propaganda, ONE people with a common heritage: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)73103-2/fulltext I respectfully suggest that if you really want Israel to survive and be at peace, you should read this article and consider its contents: http://www.harpers.org/archive/2005/01/0080361 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For mor truths about Israel's inhumane attacks on unarmed civilians who were locked in the inescapable box of Gaza with nowhere to run: http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/report/impunity-war-crimes-gaza-southern-israel-recipe-further-civilian-suffering-20090702 And check out these videos. there are hundreds just like them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFUsSpcZjW0&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTUYivihoTE And check out the behavior of immigrant Jewish settlers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKwDrWFLrGk&feature=related It is Israelis, not Palestinians who have always been the aggressors. Israel owns the 4th most powerful military on the planet.and Palestinians havew been under brutal subjugation and occupation for decades by people who moved in on them and stole most of their land, and is continuing to steal ever more chunks through settlement-building. Any Palestinian resistance to this gross injustice is natural resistance to oppression. If we were in the shoes of Palestinians, some of us would be resisting the occupation of our country also. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Golan, Please consider that it is Israel that was dumped like a rampaging elephant in the middle of Palestinians in 1948, and it is Israelis, not Palestinians, who are continuing to move the inhabitants of the land of Palestinians out of the way for its (Israel's) expansion. You charge me with promoting propaganda when it is Israel and its US various lobby that hides truths here that all of Europe and the rest of the world sees in their nightly news. What I provide here is truth, not propaganda. For example,these documents: http://www.alzaytouna.net/arabic/?c=1519&a=90731 and these stories: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/09/gaza-palestinians-israel-evacuees-zeitoun http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8164582.stm 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Walter Steinlauf, in your mind, just what are the "interests of Israel" that you want to see "advanced"? Do they include continued expansion and land theft? How many more innocent Palestinians who have been already displaced and dispossessed of their homes, farms and livelyhoods must die in senseless unprovoked attacks by Israeli forces so that their land may be acquired for new and expanding Jewish-only colonies? The strike on innocent people in Iran that you propose is cowardly, as you armchair-referee massive deaths from afar. Such a strike would unleash devastating repercussions worldwide. The rest of the world gets truth about the real threat to peace in the region, which is Israel, as it continues to stall peace efforts and use aggression and the subsequent pathetic retaliation to that aggression as excuse to continue expanding into Arab Christian and Muslim lands. For truths that you seem to be ignorant of see the following videos: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589 also check out: http://ifamericansknew.org/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Mr. Schutz, there is no controversy on Rachel Corrie's death other than the lies and propaganda spewing constantly from the "Israel-the-poor-victim-which-only-wants-peace" propaganda machine. Israel doesn't want peace, and Israel sabatauges all peace efforts so that it can continue gaining sympathy as it aggressively kills people for their land. That's the game, and Israel has played it well fo more than 60 years. For example, we constantly hear of the "Generous offer" that was turned dow by the Palestinians at Oslo. Here is the truth about the so-called "generous offer": At Camp David, Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians an astonishingly generous peace with dignity and statehood. Arafat not only turned it down, he refused to make a counteroffer!" (Charles Krauthammer, Seattle Times, 10/16/00). This account is one of the most tenacious myths of the conflict. Its implications are obvious: There is nothing Israel can do to make peace with its Palestinian neighbors. The Israeli army’s increasingly deadly attacks, in this version, can be seen purely as self-defense against Palestinian aggression that is motivated by little more than blind hatred. Locking in occupation To understand what actually happened at Camp David, it's necessary to know that for many years the PLO has officially called for a two-state solution in which Israel would keep the 78 percent of the Palestine Mandate (as Britain's protectorate was called) that it has controlled since 1948, and a Palestinian state would be formed on the remaining 22 percent that Israel has occupied since the 1967 war (the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem). Israel would withdraw completely from those lands, return to the pre-1967 borders and a resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 would be negotiated between the two sides. Then, in exchange, the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel (PLO Declaration, 12/7/88; PLO Negotiations Department). Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01). The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump. Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank. for much more: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 N. Shuster, You seem indeed to be an idiot. Your apologetic claims of Israeli expansion into ever more Palestinian land are naive at best, but woefully ignorant of the situation, I suspect. Israel has been murdering Palestinians and stealing their land since 1948. At the beginning of the 20th century Jewish people constituted only 7% of the population in the part of Palestine that became Isreal. Jewish immigrants swelled to 33% of the total by 1948 when Jewish forces overran more than 500 Palestinian towns and villages, murdering every man woman and child in 33 of those villages. These acts drove nearly 800,000 Palestinians from their homes and lands into exile to surrounding Arab States. Though Israel (with the 33% minority) was granted 53% of the land (the fertile valleys and prime farmlands) by the UN (no one bothered to ask Palestinians if they'd mind just stepping out of the way), Israel's overran the borders of their more than generous grant, and ended up murdering their way across an additional 25% of what was Palestinian land. See map and read text: http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/5BB47D9E-77FC-4717-93D3-55E5C186A3F9/ This, from David Ben Gurion: "I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out." THIS is why Israel will never have peace if it continues, as Netanyahu and all of his predecessors have continued, stealing more and more Palestinian land. Rachel Corrie and others of good faith and conscience were and are telling the world, a world blinded by myths of a righteous Israel, not the murderous fascist State that it is, that killing innocent people and ethnic cleansing of land and apartheid policies are wrong. Justice and Zionism are incompatible, and those here who support the latter are void of all that makes some of us human. Good Jews know this, as Good Christians and Muslims know this. All of them live and lived for millennia on land that Israel has stolen and now claims as its own. How can anyone justify this? How??? 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Will Edwards, Mussa makes perfect sense. and from another, this gentleman an Israeli patriot who also makes perfect sense: The first ten days of the assault on Gaza, which led to the deaths of many of those Palestinians still trapped in the rubble of their homes, prompted Shlaim to write a column for the London Guardian, with language rarely, if ever, found in print on the American side of the Atlantic. Here are the opening lines from the column Shlaim wrote January 7, for the Guardian. "The only way to make sense of Israel’s senseless war in Gaza is through understanding the historical context. Establishing the state of Israel in May 1948 involved a monumental injustice to the Palestinians. British officials bitterly resented American partisanship on behalf of the infant state. On 2 June 1948, Sir John Troutbeck wrote to the foreign secretary, Ernest Bevin, that the Americans were responsible for the creation of a gangster state headed by “an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders”. I used to think that this judgment was too harsh but Israel’s vicious assault on the people of Gaza, and the Bush administration’s complicity in this assault, have reopened the question. I write as someone who served loyally in the Israeli army in the mid-1960s and who has never questioned the legitimacy of the state of Israel within its pre-1967 borders. What I utterly reject is the Zionist colonial project beyond the Green Line. The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in the aftermath of the June 1967 war had very little to do with security and everything to do with territorial expansionism. The aim was to establish Greater Israel through permanent political, economic and military control over the Palestinian territories. And the result has been one of the most prolonged and brutal military occupations of modern times." Shalim’s family immigrated to Israel from Iraq in 1950. He has served in the Israeli army, and is now a professor of international relations at the University of Oxford. He has written two highly-regarded books, The Iron Wall and Lion of Jordan: King Hussein’s Life in War and Peace. Another book, Israel and Palestine, will be published in September. For more on Shlaim’s story as an Israeli scholar shattered by the Gaza attack, read Robert Fisk’s most recent London Independent column. It gets better. Shlaim is not alone. There is a growing Israeli and international impatience and anger over what Israel did in Gaza. For the entire article: http://wallwritings.wordpress.com/2009/07/26/bush-blessed-israels-assault-on-gaza-but-the-aftermath-belongs-to-obama/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Meanwhile, Israel's propaganda war keeps spewing the lies about Israel's righteousness with a new twist: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10671.shtml 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 The ancient homeland of Jews is the same ancient homeland of Christians, Muslims, Druse and others. The difference is that Jews have always been in the minority. The claim of Zionists that it is their right to ethnically-cleanse the land of all but Jews is a false claim, as no one has a right to murder people and drive them into exile. Read some of what Jewish professor Shlomo Zand, of the University of Tel Aviv has to say on this matter: http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=16285&pst=1333138 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Paul Winter, Let's get some facts in their proper order: It is Israel that descended on Palestine, the land of the Palestinians that dates to pre-Biblical history. (Hint:: Philistines) In 1900, Jews constituted less than 7% of the population of the Palestinian land that was to become Israel. More than 700,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes in 1948 from more than 500 towns and villages. 33 of those towns suffered massacres wher Israelis killed everything alive in order to terrorize the rest into fleeing to surrounding Arab States. But many Palestinians were already being displaced by then and their land was being confiscated as Jewish immigrants poured in during the Mandate Period (1923 to 1947). Arafat agreed in 1988 to recognize Israel, just as other Arab States recognized that Israel was there to stay after the 1973 war, but Israel has repeatedly encroached into and stolen ever more land and continues to do so today. It is a myth that Israel wants peace, as Israel has repeatedly made no effort at slowing its expansion plans. The regimes in Jerusalem use the good Jewish religion as a tool to keep expanding into Arab Christian, Muslim and Druse lands under the guise of security against a hostile Arab population when all Arabs want from Israel is for Palestinians to be allowed to live in peace on the remaining 22% of their land. But that won't happen because Israel wants it all, from the Tigris to the Euphrates. If one believes the Torah and the Bible, one will find that this land grant from God was CONDITIONAL. God's Chosen were thrown from the Promised Land twice, as God said they would be if the broke their side of the agreement:: 2 Chronicles, 7 : 19-22 19But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them; 20Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations. 21And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the Lord done thus unto this land, and unto this house? 22And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the Lord God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them. Jews have no right to continue building their homes, living in other's homes whom they've driven out, and immigrating onto other's land. Land theft is illegal (UN Res. 242) and immoral, and anyone who supports this activity is a sociopath with no conscience. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 And this is what happens to Palestinian farmers as Israel continues abusing unarmed innocents: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSECq3kxT4I 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Here is an example of what Palestinians live with daily as new settlements (colonies) move in on them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFvMZTnr37s 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 While you may consider your term,"Arab sympathizer" a slight or an insult, it is neither, as to side with justice is honorable. Jewish settlers should not be living on and moving onto land that is stolen from Palestinians. In 1948 no one asked the owners of that land if they'd mind just leaving it so that Jewish immigrants could take it. The UN wrongly just granted 53% of what was historically Palestinian property to Zionist Israel. Heavily armed Jewish forces murdered and herded unarmed families int exile, and not only took the land that the UN wrongly granted them, but stormed past the borders and stole an additional 25% that the UN never intended for the Israelis. And Israel continues inviting people from all over the World to fill up new colonies (settlements) on ethnically-cleansed lands that rightfully belong to Palestinians, despite UN resolutions condemning Israel's illegal policy of land theft. The answer isn't to relocate Palestinians (who have already been sent into exile from their former homes). The answer is for Israel to quit building more settlements, and give back the land that Israel has stolen since 1967. The Palestinians have already agreed to peace numerous times if Israel would only quit killing them and removing them from their homes. But Israel has no intention of ever complying with international law, as the land theft and growth of Greater Israel continues. http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/landloss.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Please read this comment that I posted on another sight regarding continual Holocaust reminders and Jewish victims used as propaganda stage props: PSU student, you make several points, some of which I will respectfully argue. You imply that there is unwillingness to hear your side as well. What is “your side” that I haven’t heard countless times? I know of the terrible persecutions and the purges that you write of, as this narrative of Jewish suffering and historical condemnation and bondage of your people is part of our cultural construct. We in the U.S. are taught this and reminded of it constantly through our media. A CSI episode just recently again reminded us of the Nazi atrocities against Jews, and the degenerate knuckle-dragging underclass anti-Semite punks in our midst. What is “your side” that can justify your beloved Israel repeatedly bombing children in their beds, and starving them in their homes to encourage their families to leave their lands so that it can be filled with your Jewish brothers? All of the suffering and the dispossessions of the good Jewish faithful that you mention are travesties that should never have happened, and much of the current uncertainty experienced by Jewish families living outside Israel should not be, but much of it is a result of reactionary animosity because of Israel’s current policies towards Palestinians. I have no argument against your charges of Christian atrocities, and I claim not to be included in the ranks of any orthodox religion. The Christ I know is in the Gospels of the Nag Hammadi codices and in the teachings of Siddhartha. My paternal grandmother was German-Native American. I have journeyed to Big Hole, and the lands of Crazy Horse. I’ve cried at the gravesites of Chief Joseph, Elder and Younger, and I have visited Little Big Horn and wept not for the occupiers and those who brought war to the lands of the Lakota, the Cheyenne and the Arapaho, but for the fallen warriors there who were defenders of their people. I’ve stood at the fence of Wounded Knee and felt the suffering of generations of people who were stripped of their culture and forcibly contained , and I am fully aware of the containment and eugenics including medical experimentation and sterilization that was ongoing in the U.S. and Canada at the time of the re-occupation there in 1973. Just five years before, I was an occupier as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam. So I know of all that you write about injustice not being exclusively an Israeli act. While what you write is true, it does not excuse Israel for what it is doing to Palestinians. Multiple wrongs will never equal right. Empire. Expansion of Empire is what drove Europeans to overrun the entire Western Hemisphere, decimating more than 500 separate cultures. And expansion of empire is what Zionism is now about as Israel plans to expand evermore into Arab Lands. In prior centuries, Manifest Destiny policy used religion as excuse, just as Modern Zionism uses Religion as excuse. The U.S. could never do today what it did to Mexico; steal fully 1/3 of its land mass from Mexicans because international laws and accords prevent such behavior. But Israel continues stealing land with impunity. I don’t care how one tries to justify this, it is wrong. For those who think the land is an unconditional promise from God, I suggest they consider the works of Thomas Williamson. A sample: http://www.thomaswilliamson.net/God's Land.htm From: http://www.thomaswilliamson.net/ …and check out 2 Chronicles, chapter 7 verses 19 – 22. And also read the works of Dr. Shlomo Sand of the University of Tel Aviv: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966952.html Dr. Sand’s research belies some of the myths of Israel, the Diasporas and the claim of right to return. Nothing can justify apartheid, genocide and ethnic cleansing. Nothing. For a state that claims democracy to sanction these evils is ultimate hypocrisy. Demographics will demand that within 20 years Israel either give up apartheid and become a true democratic state with equal rights for all of its citizens or Israel will perish in violence. The second choice is unacceptable. A good read on this subject was published in Harpers a few years ago: Saving Israel From Itself, by Bernard Avishai http://www.harpers.org/archive/2005/01/0080361 For the site and the context: http://www.dailyvanguard.com/palestinian-via-dolorosa-1.1758313 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/landloss.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Netanyahu has no intention of negotiating peace when he can continue with the Zionist policies of ethnically cleansing evermore land for Israeli expansion. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Truth is difficult to accept sometimes, especially when truth conflicts with myths and lies that we all grew up with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance Cognitive dissonance applies to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict when one is presented with empiracle evidence that the majority of the land that became the state of Israel was owned by families that were driven into exile from that land. "An empty land without a people " was a lie, as Palestinians had lived there for centuries and had made it bloom long before immigrant Jews drove them out. Cognitive dissonance makes those with conciences feel uncomfortable, so they cling to the myths and the lies: 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ...and this also happens daily as Palestinian lands are cleared for new Israeli settlements: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFvMZTnr37s 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 ...and this also happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSECq3kxT4I 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Please read this story. This happen daily to families just like ours: http://www.standupforjerusalem.org/ 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Gary Katz, What is the logic behind your statement? It makes no sense. While a settlement freeze isn't any kind of consession (as all colonization of Palestinian lands is illegal under UN res. 242, thus all settlements will need to be abandoned and dismantled in order for Israel to be in compliance with international law), freezing would be a step in the direction of justice for Palestinians. Zionist Jews have been stealing Palestinian lands for more than 100 years. It's time that they stop, as this inhumane practice is against Judaistic principles of acceptance and compassion. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 The logic goes as follows: Israel has the right to occupy Palestinian land, lay siege to Palestinian populations in Bantustans surrounded by an apartheid wall, starve the population, cut them off from fuel and electricity, uproot their trees and crops, and launch periodic raids and targeted assassinations against them and their elected leadership, and if this population resists these massive Israeli attacks against their lives and the fabric of their society and Israel responds by slaughtering them en masse, Israel would simply be "defending" itself as it must and should. http://www.countercurrents.org/massad210109.htm 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 For a lesson of history in of the region and insight into why 700,000 Palestinian people were driven from their homes or fled in fear as 33 massacres ocurred in more than 500 towns and villages that were overrun in 1948: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sheldon-drobny/another-legacy-of-british_b_24602.html?view=print http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sheldon-drobny/another-legacy-of-british_b_24602.html?view=print 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 The Israeli demolition of the Palestinian houses is a grave breach of many of the International Agreements and Conventions such as: • Article 53 of the Fourth Geneva Convention provides that 'any destruction by the Occupying power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or other public authorities or social or cooperative organizations is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations.' • Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention also indicated that: Extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly. is a grave breach of the Convention. • Moreover, Art. 23 of the Hague Convention of 1907 also provides: In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden to destroy or seize the enemy's property, unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war. • And Under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights adopted and proclaimed by General Assembly resolution 217 A (III) of, December 10, 1948, Article 17 reads: 'No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.' Which means it bans Israel from destroying or confiscating the property of the Palestinians at any case. • http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=1782 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 See the following if you want truth based on facts and evidence, not myths and "conventional wisdom" : http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565 and: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Will Edwards, how about arresting Nettanyahoo for war crimes committed repeatedly and with impunity against innocent Palestinians? Netanyahu is using tried and true stalling tactics that once again offer the Palestinians nothing of substance while he makes it seem that the Palestinians are intransigent, and won’t accept Israel’s bid to negotiate in earnest. Same thing the Israelis did with the so called ‘generous offer” that was no viable offer at all, and one that Palestinians rightfully refused at Oslo in 2000. Check out myth # 5 after reading through other common myths and lies that many of us believe about the conflict: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article865.shtml Settlement-building (illegal colonizing) on stolen land continues by Israel as more stalling on any real peace process is the game of Netanyahu. Sameo, sameo....And our ignorant public still supports the aggressors instead of the victims. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 So far, there is only talk of settlement freezing. This isn't much of a negotiating chip, as in order for there to be a viable Palestinian state, all of the settlements will need to be evacuated and destroyed, just as Palestinian homes and farmlands were destroyed by the creation of the Israeli colonies (which was illegal under UN Resolution 242) and international law. Israel has no intention of dismanteling these entities and returning the land to its rightful owners. Netanyahu is only making the "generous offer" of a freeze so that he can tell the world that by refusing to play his ridiculous game, the Palestinians are intransigent, and don't really want peace. It's the same game that was played in 2000 at Oslo: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113 http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/189/38340.html 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 I urge all here to please view this brief documentary trailer: http://noolmusic.com/myspace_videos/if_americans_knew_documentary_trailer.php and this separate documentary: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Quote from the past (1938): "There is in existence already a considerable body of literature in English and other European languages on the history of the British mandate in Palestine. But it has to be used with care partly because of the high percentage of open or veiled propaganda, and partly because the remoteness of the indispensable Arabic sources has militated against real fairness, even the works of neutral and fair-minded historians...Zionist propaganda is active, highly organised and widespread; the world Press, at any rate in the democracies of the West, is largely amenable to it; it commands many of the available channels for the dissemination of news, and more particularly those of the English-speaking world. Arab propaganda is, in comparison, primitive and infinitely less successful: the Arabs have little of the skill, polyglottic ubiquity or financial resources which make Jewish propaganda so effective. The result is, that for a score of years or so, the world has been looking at Palestine mainly through Zionist spectacles and has unconsciously acquired the habit of reasoning on Zionist premisses. ...No lasting solution of the Palestine problem is to be hoped for until the injustice is removed. ...To those who look ahead, beyond the smoke-screen of legend and propaganda, the way to a solution is clear: it lies along the path of ordinary common sense and justice. " From The Arab Awakening: The Story of the Arab National Movement by George Antonius Intl Book Centre (1938, reprinted 1985) 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” nam123 David Ben-Gurion quote Actually, if you are a Biblical scholar you know that there are numerous passages in the Torah and the Christian bible that clearly show that God's grant of land to the Jewish Faithful was CONDITIONAL on his Covenant with them. His chosen people continually violated the agreement, and they lost their right to the land with no further "right to return", as was later claimed by Theodore Herzl and his followers. Begin by readind 2 Chronicles Chapter 7 Verses 19-22 with God's warning: 19But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them; 20Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations. 21And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house? 22And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them. Israel's government is bulldozing homes, bifurcating West Bank land with The Wall and Jewish-only roads, cutting Palestinian farmers from their lands, shooting unarmed farmers and fishermen, starving the people out while Israel steals ever more land from them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSECq3kxT4I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF3ZMy7ICDY The logic goes as follows: Israel has the right to occupy Palestinian land, lay siege to Palestinian populations in Bantustans ( open air prisons) surrounded by an apartheid wall, starve the population, cut them off from fuel and electricity, uproot their trees and crops, and launch periodic raids and targeted assassinations against them and their elected leadership, and if this population resists these massive Israeli attacks against their lives and the fabric of their society and Israel responds by slaughtering them en masse, Israel would simply be "defending" itself as it must and should. Joseph Massad comments for EI. http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article865.shtml 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Shaul Levy, Israel had already "transferred" three quarters of a million Palestinian people in 1948 when it overran 500 towns and villages, committing 33 massacres and subsequently stealing 78% of what was Palestinian lands: http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/landloss.html Netanyahu is using tried and true stalling tactics that once again offer the Palestinians nothing of substance while he makes it seem that the Palestinians are intransigent, and won't accept Israel's bid to negotiate in earnest. Same thing the Israelis did with the so called 'generous offer" that was no viable offer at all, and one that Palestinians rightfully refused at Oslo in 2000. Check out myth # 5 after reading through other common myths and lies that many of us believe about the conflict: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article865.shtml Settlement-building (illegal colonizing) on stolen land continues by Israel as more stalling on any real peace process is the game of Netanyahu. Sameo, sameo....And our ignorant public still supports the aggressors instead of the victims. 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00 Jared Israel, it is you, not Michael Lesher who is posting misinformation here. The ongoing propaganda and lies about Israel's behavior and the belief in the myths of the righteousness of the state of Israel and the false charges of anti-Semitism such as implied by you towards Mr. Lesher are what allows Israel to continue to kill Palestinians and steal their land with impunity. The facts ar, Israel is strangling Gaza and the West Bank:: http://www.alzaytouna.net/arabic/data/attachments/2008/OCHA-GS-Situation-18 24-1-08.pdf Israeli troops routinely kill innocent Palestinians: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSECq3kxT4I And Israel has been stealing land and resources for decades: http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/maps/landloss.html http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11680 2012-02-09T;22:54:00-05:00