Behind the Headlines the Ghorbal Interview in Marchar: Fact or Fiction?

A Buenos Aires magazine article in which the destruction of Judaism was advocated and in which the Catholic Church was attacked has been scorned and repudiated by the Egyptian and Argentinian ambassadors implicated with it. But puzzling factors continue to elude clarification.

The article, which has gathered attention on four continents and aroused especially wide American and Israeli concern, appeared in the March issue of the extreme right-wing Argentinian periodical “Marchar” (To March) in which its editor, Patricio Kelly, reported his interview with Egyptian Ambassador Ashraf Ghorbal. (See original report in JTA Bulletin April 2, P. 2) The interview took place Jan. 13 in the Egyptian Embassy in Washington after Kelly had been introduced to Ghorbal by the Argentine ambassador here, Alejandro Orfila.

According to the Marchar article, Ghorbal referred to Judaism as the “bridgehead” of “exploiting colonialism” which “must disappear.” The envoy also was said to have described as “irrevocable” the Arab decision “to destroy Judaism as has been promised by our friends here in the United States, Russia and also in your country, as has been established by Rega Lopez.” In addition, Marchar quoted Ghorbal as saying that among the “foes of the Arab struggle” the Catholic church “is the most dangerous of all.”

Rega Lopez, considered the “strong man” in Argentina, is the Minister of Social Welfare since last January and private secretary to President Isabel Peron. According to reliable reports by those knowledgeable with the Argentine scene, one of Lopez’s first acts was to oust -his arch-rival, former Minister of Economy Jose Ber Gelbard, a Jew, whom Argentinians had hailed as their economic savior because of his trade agreements with the Soviet Union and the People’s Republic of China.

GHORBAL SAYS IT WASN’T SO

In attempting to learn the origins of the article and the motives for its publication, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency communicated directly with Ghorbal, Orfila, leading members of their embassies and also consulted U.S. officials and other sources concerned with Argentina and Middle Eastern affairs. In addition to his personal conversation with JTA, Ghorbal wrote a letter to the JTA that repudiated the article and avowed no animus whatever toward Judaism.

That the interview actually took place and that Orfila introduced Kelly to Ghorbal has been confirmed personally to JTA by both ambassadors. But while Kelly reported the interview lasted 90 minutes, Ghorbal said it was only two minutes. No copy of the Marchar edition carrying the article is available here but excerpts of the article had been forwarded to newsmen and others from Buenos Aires.

Kelly was reported to have “gone underground since the incident became public and Argentine authorities were described as displeased with his article. He was described by an Argentine official as having spanned the political spectrum from extreme left to extreme right. His publication also appears to have suddenly suspended operations.

‘RELIED ON A FERTILE IMAGINATION’

To an inquirer about the “painful matter” of the magazine article, Ghorbal wrote: “Mr. Kelly did not speak any English and I told him in a combination of Spanish and Italian in precise terminology ‘that the Egyptian people hold a great friendship for the Argentine people and that I was happy to visit the beautiful city of Buenos Aires in 1963.’ He understood what I said and he did not stay with me for more than two minutes.

“He did not ask any questions nor did I volunteer any statements except what I stated above. Thus, I am bewildered how the words I have spoken could become the words that he published. It is obvious, therefore, that Mr. Kelly has relied on a fertile imagination inventing a whole interview which is totally contrary to my views and philosophy and those of my government.”

In addition to providing JTA with a copy of this letter, Ghorbal also made available to JTA copies of his exchange of letters with Orfila. The Orfila letter of March 31, reflecting or what had happened, said that “upon his arrival in Washington, Mr. Kelly requested a meeting with you through this embassy. According to conversations with him, he wanted to prepare an analysis on the Mideast situation. Since the printing of his evaluation of this meeting, it has become obvious that not only were your thoughts and position not reflected correctly, but concepts were expressed that were not even discussed during this meeting.”

Orfila’s letter also said that “this article was printed in a publication practically unknown in Argentina outside of extreme hationalistic groups” and that “his actions have been reported to the Secretary of the Press of the Argentine government.” JTA asked Orfila, in view of the reported obscurity of Marchar, why he had recommended Kelly to Ghorbal for an interview. Orfila replied that he was being “logistical” and assisting an Argentine Journalist.

REFLECTS VIEWS OF LIBYAN ENVOY

Ghorbal told JTA that the article “transcends the Arab-Israeli issue” and “we have never practiced any such thing as anti-Semitism.” The article, he said, reflects “not the ambassador of Egypt but of Libya.” Plainly disturbed by the article. Ghorbal said “That man (Kelly) messes up my very close relationship that I have been enjoying with my many friends of the Jewish faith in the United States.”

Following up his conversation with JTA, Ghorbal in a letter to JTA April 10, wrote: “It is needless for me to reiterate that Egypt has never practiced anti-Semitism, anti-Judaism nor anti-Catholicism. Egypt does not believe in such a hateful philosophy. Our leaders have been on record to stress that.” He mentioned Barbara Walters’ visit to Egypt last September that included a visit to the Cairo synagogue and interviews with Jews there. “All these interviews have been shown on the ‘Today’ program on NBC,” Ghorbal wrote. “It testifies to what I stated above that Egypt is aland of tolerance and brotherhood.”

JOURNALISTS DIFFER WITH GHORBAL’S ASSESSMENT

Despite Ghorbal’s assertions, a number of Jewish and non-Jewish Journalists who recently visited Egypt, including the eminent author Robert St. John offered totally different assessments of the Jewish condition extant in Egypt. Several noted that there are no weddings, no bar mitzvahs, no ritual circumcisions. Several also noted that the use of synagogues and of Jews in its precincts for propaganda and tourist attractions and the tokenism of a Jew in a high position are presented in Egypt just as they are presented in the Soviet Union, Poland

The eminent author, Robert St. John, in a series of reports from Cairo written exclusively for The Jewish News of Detroit in the last three weeks, had this to say about the Jewish condition in general and synagogues, in particular:

“Before Israel became a State Egypt had approximately 100,000 Jews. (No two authorities agree on the precise figure. Some say 80,000; others put it as high as 150,000.) Fifteen years ago, when I was last there, although Egypt had twice gone to war against the Jewish State there were still a great many Jews left and many of the twenty Cairo synagogues were still functioning. Today there are two hundred Jews left in Cairo and about the same number in Alexandria. (This figure also is not precise, for there are some Egyptian Jews who for years have not identified and have gradually vanished into the polyglot population, just as had happened in New York and other large cities.)

“About the synagogues….Travel brochures issued by the Egyptian government list the Synagogue Ben Ezra in the area called Old Cairo as one of the ten or twenty most important sites for tourists to visit. Surrounded by twenty Coptic churches and twenty-nine mosques and close beside the great Coptic Museum, it is the only one of Cairo’s synagogues now in presentable condition.”

DESCRIBES ‘REAL SHOCK’

But, St. John continued, the “real shook” came when he walked “down a narrow, twisty street, extremely filthy, even for Cairo, called Shari Mohassar al Knachab, the Street of the Wood Cutters. This is the way into the heart, of what was once one of the most congested Jewish quarters anywhere in the world. These shops, these houses, this whole area was one hundred percent Jewish. Now all trace of Jews and Judaism is gone. The small shops are owned by Egyptians now. There’s not a Mogen David anywhere until you come to the ruins of the Maimonides Synagogue. Ruins? The walls stand but last Rosh Hashana the roof caved in….

“A young Orthodox rabbi from Boston says he is trying to persuade the Egyptian government to do something to save buildings like this before it is too late. The cultural attache of the American Embassy says maybe the Smithsonian Institution could be interested. Someone speaks of a demoralized community. It’s more than that. It is a community in the last stages of utter decay. Just fifteen years later. Pity the two hundred!”